"My deity/deities exist and yours doesn't" mentality

[Theweirdtophat]

I don't know I always personally found it rude when someone who is an adherent to a religion believes in a deity or pantehon but then says that only their deity/pantheon exists and the others don't. I personally think almost all of the deities exist and I think almost every religion has some truth to it. I for one thing would never say that I don't think their deity exists even though I don't practice that religion. Like with Ahura Mazda, who I think is cool, but I just don't practice Zoroastrianism or with others like Jesus or Allah or Thor or Vishnu. I'm sure we've all encountered folks like that who just assume all other deities are make believe and only theirs exist.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I don't know I always personally found it rude when someone who is an adherent to a religion believes in a deity or pantehon but then says that only their deity/pantheon exists and the others don't. I personally think almost all of the deities exist and I think almost every religion has some truth to it. I for one thing would never say that I don't think their deity exists even though I don't practice that religion. Like with Ahura Mazda, who I think is cool, but I just don't practice Zoroastrianism or with others like Jesus or Allah or Thor or Vishnu. I'm sure we've all encountered folks like that who just assume all other deities are make believe and only theirs exist.

It's arrogance in the extreme to think one's own experience of deity precludes everyone elses'. As if by having this experience it sets a person above his fellows and gives him access to a cosmic truth others can't have simply because they believe differently.

 

[Jainarayan]

I'm sure we've all encountered folks like that who just assume all other deities are make believe and only theirs exist.

So far the worst I've encountered, if I can even say I have, because it hasn't been overt, is the "I don't care about other gods, I have my own". There's a saying in an Indian (south Asian) language that loosely translates as "Everyone sees God in their own way", or "God shows himself in a way meaningful to the believer". So if a Hellenic sees Artemis as a Goddess, or when a Christian says Jesus is God I will never gainsay that.

 

[Quintessence]

Perhaps we should learn to appreciate the value of imagination and "make believe" a little more...

 

[Blastcat]

Perhaps we should learn to appreciate the value of imagination and "make believe" a little more...

Just precisely IS the value of imagination and make believe?.. We can tell nice tales and make money writing books.. and it's all very entertaining.. but if we truly want to know how things work in our world.. how is making pretend going to help us?

 

[Blastcat]

I don't know I always personally found it rude when someone who is an adherent to a religion believes in a deity or pantehon but then says that only their deity/pantheon exists and the others don't. I personally think almost all of the deities exist and I think almost every religion has some truth to it. I for one thing would never say that I don't think their deity exists even though I don't practice that religion. Like with Ahura Mazda, who I think is cool, but I just don't practice Zoroastrianism or with others like Jesus or Allah or Thor or Vishnu. I'm sure we've all encountered folks like that who just assume all other deities are make believe and only theirs exist.

From an atheist's point of view, this looks like a storm in a tea pot that orbits the Sun somewhere in space between the Earth and Mars.
We can't falsify any god belief.. so the argument between two god believers seems just as ridiculous as claiming what happens in that pot.

How about we establish that the pot exists first, and THEN speculate what FLAVOR of tea brews in it. No?.. Not a good idea? Ok.. was just a suggestion. because in my way of thinking, if there IS no way to falsify any of these beliefs, whatever they are, we are dealing with pure speculation and nothing else. Let's not get carried away about who's pure speculation is better... All speculations are make believe and pretend.

I'm an outsider.. so I don't have a stake in EITHER side.. now. who is going to be more objective, Side A, Side B , or someone who clearly doesn't HAVE a side?

Now, I suppose the OP is about a religious person who also doesn't want to pick sides.. All gods are just as real as any other... Ok.. Well, that might be FAIR... but fairness does not equate to reality. You might have a FAIR belief, but not a true belief that reflects reality in any way.

Just because you are playing nice, doesn't make the game less make believe. But, please children.. do play nice.

 

[Quintessence]

Just precisely IS the value of imagination and make believe?.. We can tell nice tales and make money writing books.. and it's all very entertaining.. but if we truly want to know how things work in our world.. how is making pretend going to help us?

Why are you expecting art to be science and technology? That's not the point. They're both important and valuable. The arts can be used to explore the nature of reality as much as the sciences can. But if you do not value the arts, well... that's sad to me, but you are the way you are.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Some will say that theirs are all important and the other deities are "false deities" but what does that really mean? Does it mean that those deities are imaginary or are they false because they lead them to a wrong path, unlike this particular deity that will lead you to the truth? Even in the bible they say not to worship other deities which heavily implies that there are deities, but Yahweh is the only one worth listening to. yet there are still some out there that assume all of the other deities are imaginary.

 

[Quintessence]

We'd have to ask each individual person for clarification about what "false deities" means to them, then listen actively to ensure we understand what they're really trying to get across. Communicating these things is often complicated, and while we use many simple words to describe our beliefs and practices, the understood meaning behind those simple words can differ significantly between speaker and listener.

 

[Riverwolf]

Just precisely IS the value of imagination and make believe?

It's the thing that makes us human and not robots. It informs and influences culture, and gives us our identity. It also allows us to think outside the established box and explore other possibilities beyond the status quo.

I seriously find the idea that "imagination is only for children, because children are some euphemism for stupid" absolutely monstrous.

.. We can tell nice tales and make money writing books.. and it's all very entertaining.. but if we truly want to know how things work in our world.. how is making pretend going to help us?

Knowing how things work in the world isn't the be-all-end-all goal of human existence. Many people couldn't care less; it's just useless geeky factoids to them.

These stories aren't just consumable entertainment for me. They're part of me. They're everything to me.

EDIT: To be perfectly frank, I consider this kind of condescending attitude on imagination (or on pursuit of knowledge, or any other aspect of human behavior that certain people value highly over others) as effectively akin to the mindset presented in the OP. It's dismissive of what others find important, which in many cases can be very isolating.

 

[Blastcat]

Why are you expecting art to be science and technology? That's not the point. They're both important and valuable. The arts can be used to explore the nature of reality as much as the sciences can. But if you do not value the arts, well... that's sad to me, but you are the way you are.

Hold on, buckaroo.. Who was talking about art? I am an artist, among other things, so I hardly need to be told how valuable art is.
We were talking of gods and the supernatural, NOT debating about art ... as far as i KNOW.. this isn't a debate about art.

And it would be LESS of an utter waste of time to not IMAGINE some nonsense about people you don't even know. PLEASE.. that's VALUELESS imagination. This is where pretend and make believe interferes with clear thinking.

Imagination and make believe isn't ALWAYS called for. Sorry.

 

[Blastcat]

It's the thing that makes us human and not robots. It informs and influences culture, and gives us our identity. It also allows us to think outside the established box and explore other possibilities beyond the status quo.

I seriously find the idea that "imagination is only for children, because children are some euphemism for stupid" absolutely monstrous.

I guess I agree with a lot of that. I knew when I asked the question that it had an easy answer. However, if you read on, I was saying that when we want to know how the world works, that the imagination can't just be the only method to use. I was very inarticulate. In the scientific method, the imagination is extremely valuable as a place to start. Yes? We call that process making hypotheses.. And then we TEST the hypotheses.. We just don't imagine something and then think the tests are over.

I did say that art and imagination are fun and entertaining.. I love to read, to write, to sing and dance and make all kinds of art. But to use the imagination as a SUBSTITUTE for testing reality is what I was trying to get at.

Just dreaming something up and then.. that's it.. doesn't add much of anything to anyone. Happy delusions are fine, but.. they still are delusions. That's what I was trying to get at. I'm sorry the question wasn't well thought out or formulated.

IKnowing how things work in the world isn't the be-all-end-all goal of human existence. Many people couldn't care less; it's just useless geeky factoids to them.

True. I agree. UNLESS you stake your life on a medical procedure, or on a plane getting safely to a destination, or.. knowing how the world works in a reliable, testable way. Then we are VERY happy about all the geeks out there. Your computer is a geek's dream. To deny science as a benefit to humanity is to stick your head in the sand. I'm sure you don't do that.

I have friends right now who are struggling with the science of energy.. because the world NEEDS this kind of science.. IN A BAD WAY.. Call them geeks if you like. But they might just save the planet. You have to be ALIVE at least to make art.

These stories aren't just consumable entertainment for me. They're part of me. They're everything to me.

Then you are denying a huge part of reality.

EDIT: To be perfectly frank, I consider this kind of condescending attitude on imagination (or on pursuit of knowledge, or any other aspect of human behavior that certain people value highly over others) as effectively akin to the mindset presented in the OP. It's dismissive of what others find important, which in many cases can be very isolating.

Nobody is dismissing you here. What I do find problematic is that you go from "It's EVERYTHING to me" to.. what others find important. I find art important too. No question, it's important. Don't get so carried away.

I am not advocating robot minds here... BUT we DO need to get real about reality. Dreams wont always SUFFICE.

Sometimes, signing and dancing and burning incense or whatever DOESN'T help at all. Are you going to tell a nice story to the people who are suffering in NEPAL right now? Maybe you NEED a gentle reminder that your stories aren't always what's called for in the REAL world.

Now, there is place for BOTH art AND science in this world, for sure. Let's have BOTH.. but don't PRETEND that science is in second place. Most people don't happen to DO science.

So a feel good story is NICE.. but sometimes perfectly USELESS.

 

[Blastcat]

Why are you expecting art to be science and technology? That's not the point. They're both important and valuable. The arts can be used to explore the nature of reality as much as the sciences can. But if you do not value the arts, well... that's sad to me, but you are the way you are.

I am not expecting art to be science. So, yeah, I agree it's not the point at all. and not my point at all. Great. We agree on that.

But art can't be used as a method to know about reality. Come on.. we all know that art is representative of HUMAN values and experience, but it won't tell us squat about how mountains quake.. Come on.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I personally think almost all of the deities exist ...

Based on what?

 

[Levite]

I don't know I always personally found it rude when someone who is an adherent to a religion believes in a deity or pantehon but then says that only their deity/pantheon exists and the others don't. I personally think almost all of the deities exist and I think almost every religion has some truth to it. I for one thing would never say that I don't think their deity exists even though I don't practice that religion. Like with Ahura Mazda, who I think is cool, but I just don't practice Zoroastrianism or with others like Jesus or Allah or Thor or Vishnu. I'm sure we've all encountered folks like that who just assume all other deities are make believe and only theirs exist.

While, as a pure monotheist, I believe there is only one God, I wouldn't merely dismiss all other religions as make believe. I would say, rather, that other religions represent legitimate expressions of human beings trying to relate to God-- potentially very effective ways to live moral and ethical lives that do good in the world and can be spiritually elevating for people-- only with the error made along the way that the one God is multiple, or dualistic, or triune, or incarnated in human form, or whatnot. I think people of other religions usually are actually interacting with facets of the One God, they just make some misinterpretations along the way-- but nothing that would render their religion worthless or their spirituality baseless.

 

[Nakosis]

Just precisely IS the value of imagination and make believe?.. We can tell nice tales and make money writing books.. and it's all very entertaining.. but if we truly want to know how things work in our world.. how is making pretend going to help us?

We made believe we could fly to the moon. What we create starts in the imagination.

 

[Blastcat]

We made believe we could fly to the moon. What we create starts in the imagination.

True, it's good to have dreams. Make believe is ok.. for STARTERS.. that's not what I meant.. I asked a badly formed question.
We DID make it happen through a whole lot of EFFORT and NOT just dreaming it on some nice cozy chair in a nice cozy room...

We may START OFF by dreaming, and that's fine. That's really great. We DO need creative flashes from time to time.

What do the hopes and dreams have anything to do with reality? That's more what I meant. I'm a dreamer.. I love to be creative.. people admire that.. and so do I. I'm not putting down the creative spark that some of us have.

BUT .. we do have to do more than just dream. That was my point. When it comes PASSED the dreaming phase, and we want to MAKE A PLAN about reality.. Let's say.. a plan about how TO get to the moon.. did we poll the visionaries and the dreamers and the poets and the artists to get us there?

I think the nuts and the bolts were NOT dreams... NOT wishes.. NOT hopes..

There is a difference between dreams and reality. At least I can see a difference.

"Hope" you agree with that..

YOU MIGHT have a dream, but it just stays a dream until you put it into ACTION... and then, the dreamers have to stand aside and let the DOERS DO.

The dreamers can stay comfy in their comfy creamy couches and drift in their divine divans in dreams of anything they want.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

As a Christian, I can definitely understand that mentality because of the nature of monotheism. Of course, I'm a monotheist myself. However, I try not to be rude to others and I don't discount their experiences. When it comes to polytheists and such, I don't accept their deities as deities but I can accept them as nature spirits and such. I don't discount that they're having real experiences with some sort of entity and that it is positive to them. I think it's fine to agree to disagree while maintaining respect.

 

[Glaurung]

I don't know I always personally found it rude when someone who is an adherent to a religion believes in a deity or pantehon but then says that only their deity/pantheon exists and the others don't.

I don't believe in being rude, but as a Christian I believe that the truth is independent of how we feel about it. And I believe the truth is that there is only one God, the creator. He is our God whether you like it or not.

I personally think almost all of the deities exist and I think almost every religion has some truth to it.

I doubt that you really think every deity supposed to exist actually does. Anyway, Christians don't need to think that other religions are utterly bereft of virtue and truth, but that there is a definite truth and when a religion differs from what we believe has been revealed by God, it is wrong. We can be respectful despite our differences, but pretending that everyone is right in their own way is simply lying.

Even in the bible they say not to worship other deities which heavily implies that there are deities, but Yahweh is the only one worth listening to. yet there are still some out there that assume all of the other deities are imaginary.

God is God, however Christianity certainly accepts and repeatedly warns of the existence of various spirits opposed to God who will try to lead you astray. Whether they claim to be the deities of old, or aliens from Zeta Reticuli, the goal is the same; to deceive.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

I don't know I always personally found it rude when someone who is an adherent to a religion believes in a deity or pantehon but then says that only their deity/pantheon exists and the others don't. I personally think almost all of the deities exist and I think almost every religion has some truth to it. I for one thing would never say that I don't think their deity exists even though I don't practice that religion. Like with Ahura Mazda, who I think is cool, but I just don't practice Zoroastrianism or with others like Jesus or Allah or Thor or Vishnu. I'm sure we've all encountered folks like that who just assume all other deities are make believe and only theirs exist.

This would apply most to atheism, which rejects every belief, including it's own. As long as we acknowledge faith in our beliefs, we do not claim inherent unquestionable intellectual superiority. That's where the arrogance, problems start for any belief is it not? theist or atheist. We're all making our best guess.