"My deity/deities exist and yours doesn't" mentality

[Thana]

I don't know I always personally found it rude when someone who is an adherent to a religion believes in a deity or pantehon but then says that only their deity/pantheon exists and the others don't. I personally think almost all of the deities exist and I think almost every religion has some truth to it. I for one thing would never say that I don't think their deity exists even though I don't practice that religion. Like with Ahura Mazda, who I think is cool, but I just don't practice Zoroastrianism or with others like Jesus or Allah or Thor or Vishnu. I'm sure we've all encountered folks like that who just assume all other deities are make believe and only theirs exist.

I don't presume to understand or know more than I do.
I know my God but I don't know yours. That's pretty much where I leave it. I won't make any assertions other than that.

 

[Riverwolf]

I guess I agree with a lot of that. I knew when I asked the question that it had an easy answer. However, if you read on, I was saying that when we want to know how the world works, that the imagination can't just be the only method to use. I was very inarticulate. In the scientific method, the imagination is extremely valuable as a place to start. Yes? We call that process making hypotheses.. And then we TEST the hypotheses.. We just don't imagine something and then think the tests are over.

I apologize for misunderstanding, then.

I did say that art and imagination are fun and entertaining.. I love to read, to write, to sing and dance and make all kinds of art. But to use the imagination as a SUBSTITUTE for testing reality is what I was trying to get at.

Just dreaming something up and then.. that's it.. doesn't add much of anything to anyone. Happy delusions are fine, but.. they still are delusions. That's what I was trying to get at. I'm sorry the question wasn't well thought out or formulated.

True. I agree. UNLESS you stake your life on a medical procedure, or on a plane getting safely to a destination, or.. knowing how the world works in a reliable, testable way. Then we are VERY happy about all the geeks out there. Your computer is a geek's dream. To deny science as a benefit to humanity is to stick your head in the sand. I'm sure you don't do that.

To be perfectly clear, I'm a geek myself. ^_^

I have friends right now who are struggling with the science of energy.. because the world NEEDS this kind of science.. IN A BAD WAY.. Call them geeks if you like. But they might just save the planet. You have to be ALIVE at least to make art.

Then you are denying a huge part of reality.

No, I'm not.

I'm experiencing a huge part of reality in a way that's consistent with my natural mode of thinking.

I live for the sake of art. A life without art is not a life worth living to me, and so all methods of staying alive are for the sake of art.

Nobody is dismissing you here. What I do find problematic is that you go from "It's EVERYTHING to me" to.. what others find important. I find art important too. No question, it's important. Don't get so carried away.

I am not advocating robot minds here... BUT we DO need to get real about reality. Dreams wont always SUFFICE.

Sometimes, signing and dancing and burning incense or whatever DOESN'T help at all. Are you going to tell a nice story to the people who are suffering in NEPAL right now? Maybe you NEED a gentle reminder that your stories aren't always what's called for in the REAL world.

Now, there is place for BOTH art AND science in this world, for sure. Let's have BOTH.. but don't PRETEND that science is in second place. Most people don't happen to DO science.

So a feel good story is NICE.. but sometimes perfectly USELESS.

Okay. Thanks for the clarification. Apart from one above response, which I suspect is to a misunderstanding, I pretty much agree.

A good story to the people of Nepal might help lift their spirits, but it certainly won't rebuild their homes. Solid, reliable facts, supplied by over a century of scientific inquiry and experimentation at this point, are required for measurable relief. Worth mentioning, however, that a few weeks after 9/11, voice actor Kevin Conroy was at a relief center, and a few younger people there thought he sounded awfully familiar. He decided to remind people of why he sounded familiar by quoting one of his most well-known and beloved bits to this day:

"I am vengeance. I am the night. I. Am. BATMAN!"

Apparently, that was the first time they'd smiled or laughed since the incident. Might seem small, but good morale vs. bad morale can mean the difference between victory and defeat, and I'd wager a family or two was saved by that boost.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I'm sure we've all encountered folks like that who just assume all other deities are make believe and only theirs exist.

I'm sure there are enough gods to go round.

 

[Bunyip]

I don't mean to state the obvious - but wouldn't it be essential for any theist to think that they believe in the right god?

 

[LuisDantas]

I have recently come to wonder if it is even proper for a practicioner to want to afirm a deity's existence.

I have no more elegant way of putting it, but isn't a deity supposed to beyond existence?

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't mean to state the obvious - but wouldn't it be essential for any theist to think that they believe in the right god?

I don't think so.

On the contrary, it is a sign of worrisome insecurity to even bother with the matter. It is not supposed to be important for a theist as I understand them whether their deities are "truly real".

Deities are not legal tender or anything similar, for there to be much of a point in "trusting" or "evidencing" that they are "truly real".

At the end of the day, the proof is in the pudding - or in this case, in the practicioner. If he draws constructive inspiration from a deity, than that is the decisive evidence that for him that deity is indeed real. That he actually made it that much real, if you will.

 

[Glaurung]

have no more elegant way of putting it, but isn't a deity supposed to beyond existence?

Beyond existence would imply non-existence, but we affirm that God does very much exist. The difference between God and a creature is that God exists non-contingently, that is, the cause and substance of His own existence, not that we can't coherently attribute existence to Him.

 

[rusra02]

I don't know I always personally found it rude when someone who is an adherent to a religion believes in a deity or pantehon but then says that only their deity/pantheon exists and the others don't. I personally think almost all of the deities exist and I think almost every religion has some truth to it. I for one thing would never say that I don't think their deity exists even though I don't practice that religion. Like with Ahura Mazda, who I think is cool, but I just don't practice Zoroastrianism or with others like Jesus or Allah or Thor or Vishnu. I'm sure we've all encountered folks like that who just assume all other deities are make believe and only theirs exist.

I believe the true God wants all people to know him and have his love and friendship. (Acts 17:29,30) Thus, worship of false gods separates us from our Lifegiver and Creator, IMO. It offends the true God, and can cause those worshipping false gods to do evil. Think of the crimes perpetrated through history due to false religion, such as child sacrifice, war, murder, and torture. As Jehovah told his people who turned to worshipping false gods, He called these false gods " worthless gods of silver and...valueless gods of gold, which your own hands sinfully made." (Isaiah 31:7)

 

[LuisDantas]

Beyond existence would imply non-existence, but we affirm that God does very much exist. The difference between God and a creature is that God exists non-contingently, that is, the cause and substance of His own existence, not that we can't coherently attribute existence to Him.

Is it any different from the odd relationship that deities have with physical forms? Is there any true reason why a deity even needs to "be real"?

It seems to me that instead it is the insecurity of practicioners that creates an attachment to the idea of their literal existence.

 

[Glaurung]

t seems to me that instead it is the insecurity of practicioners that creates an attachment to the idea of their literal existence.

Christianity rests on a set of historical claims about actual events that happened in the real literal world. About a God who claims a very definite identity and is not some mere avatar or aspect of the 'Brahman' or 'universal conciousness'. We believe in an actual objective reality and an objective independent God who is very real.

Oh, you know, Jesus isn't real and there is nothing beyond this life. But let's just pretend anyway!

That would be absurd.

 

[LuisDantas]

I think you misunderstood what I meant.

I am not saying that God is make-pretend because he is not tied to literal physical manifestations in certain places and times.

I am saying that attempting to tie him to such manifestations is an indication that he is probably not quite believed in.

And yes, IMO it does impoverish him.

 

[Quintessence]

I don't mean to state the obvious - but wouldn't it be essential for any theist to think that they believe in the right god?

Is it essential for anyone with a favorite color to think that they have the right favorite color?

(And yes, as a polytheist and a pluralist, that's just about how absurd the question seems to me)

 

[Blastcat]

I don't believe in being rude, but as a Christian I believe that the truth is independent of how we feel about it. And I believe the truth is that there is only one God, the creator. He is our God whether you like it or not.

The part where you say.. "Whether you like it or not"... It's a bit creepy. It reminds me a bit too much of what someone who wants to force his beliefs on someone else would say.. He is OUR god.. like it or not.. Sounds JUST like a veiled threat to me. Well, what happens if I DON'T like it?

I doubt that you really think every deity supposed to exist actually does.

Right. Some people just HAVE to be wrong about the god they happen to believe in. So, what method do you propose to use in order for us to know if the god YOU believe in is a true god, as you said. Feelings don't count, you dismissed that rightly, so what method do YOU use then?

Anyway, Christians don't need to think that other religions are utterly bereft of virtue and truth, but that there is a definite truth and when a religion differs from what we believe has been revealed by God, it is wrong.

People who have different beliefs than you also claim special revelation. Why should we accept just yours as true, and discount all the others?

We can be respectful despite our differences, but pretending that everyone is right in their own way is simply lying.

Well, as an outsider to the debate about what god is true, I would say that I have to agree. Not everyone can be right. That doesn't make sense in the face of claims that ONLY ONE god is true. But.. it's very possible that ALL such claims are false.

God is God, however Christianity certainly accepts and repeatedly warns of the existence of various spirits opposed to God who will try to lead you astray. Whether they claim to be the deities of old, or aliens from Zeta Reticuli, the goal is the same; to deceive.

And you KNOW that your god isn't deceiving you?.. Do you think an all powerful all knowing something or other CAN'T deceive you?
Let's say that a very powerful DEMON or whatnot wanted to deceive a lowly human.. how would you ever KNOW?

Again, if you claim special revelation, you have to explain how other people's claims to special revelation are invalid, but yours isn't.

Are you using, perhaps, an OTHER method and not SIMPLY this special revelation to know if your god is the only one true god and that you can't be deceived, and that no other god at all is possibly true?
I'd be interested in knowing your methodology.

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't believe in being rude, but as a Christian I believe that the truth is independent of how we feel about it. And I believe the truth is that there is only one God, the creator. He is our God whether you like it or not.

If that is the case, do you have some idea for why he chose not to make such knowledge inherent to people?

I doubt that you really think every deity supposed to exist actually does. Anyway, Christians don't need to think that other religions are utterly bereft of virtue and truth, but that there is a definite truth and when a religion differs from what we believe has been revealed by God, it is wrong. We can be respectful despite our differences, but pretending that everyone is right in their own way is simply lying.


God is God, however Christianity certainly accepts and repeatedly warns of the existence of various spirits opposed to God who will try to lead you astray. Whether they claim to be the deities of old, or aliens from Zeta Reticuli, the goal is the same; to deceive.

The only way I can reconcile your statements here is by concluding that God dislikes being believed in.

 

[Nakosis]

"Hope" you agree with that..

YOU MIGHT have a dream, but it just stays a dream until you put it into ACTION... and then, the dreamers have to stand aside and let the DOERS DO.

The dreamers can stay comfy in their comfy creamy couches and drift in their divine divans in dreams of anything they want.

Sure, I just am not sure where the potential lies. I don't know what we can or can't create until we try. Like genetically engineered unicorns or something.

What we can accomplish now would seem God like to our primitive ancestors. I'm fine with creating Gods as long as we understand who the creator actually is.

Their deities can exists for them all they want, just don't bother me with them. If I want a deity, I'll create my own.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

I'm saying that while they may be your deities, they are not mine. I don't dismiss the others as make believe, I just don't agree with all of the rules and customs of other deities. Some will feel that I'm somehow being lead astray if I don't worship the true deity.

I ask you, how is that possible?

If I'm following deities that are good and moral as well as ethical and I myself am following a moral and ethical path, than I'm not being lead astray by them. I still following the good path.

 

[Jainarayan]

I don't mean to state the obvious - but wouldn't it be essential for any theist to think that they believe in the right god?

Yes. The right God for them. The right God for a Muslim is not the right God for me. Thor or Odin are not the right God for a Hindu.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Yes. The right God for them. The right God for a Muslim is not the right God for me. Thor or Odin are not the right God for a Hindu.

Exactly. I don't go around and say Druidism is the right religion, but I feel it's the right religion for me. Really, if people disagree with other religions why can't they just say "I know of your deity/pantheon and I respectfully disagree with some of the rules and customs" not "I think your deities are make believe and your religion is a lie." That's what I find rude. Even if they did really believe all deities are fake, why can't they just keep those thoughts to themselves? It isn't too much to ask after all.

 

[Jainarayan]

Exactly. I don't go around and say Druidism is the right religion, but I feel it's the right religion for me. Really, if people disagree with other religions why can't they just say "I know of your deity/pantheon and I respectfully disagree with some of the rules and customs" not "I think your deities are make believe and your religion is a lie." That's what I find rude. Even if they did really believe all deities are fake, why can't they just keep those thoughts to themselves? It isn't too much to ask after all.

Excellent questions for which I don't have equally excellent answers. I ask myself those questions all the time. I can only think that people are not willing to think outside the box, lest it rock their beliefs. Just a thought, no evidence.

 

[Nakosis]

Exactly. I don't go around and say Druidism is the right religion, but I feel it's the right religion for me. Really, if people disagree with other religions why can't they just say "I know of your deity/pantheon and I respectfully disagree with some of the rules and customs" not "I think your deities are make believe and your religion is a lie." That's what I find rude. Even if they did really believe all deities are fake, why can't they just keep those thoughts to themselves? It isn't too much to ask after all.

Sometimes when people keep pushing their religion on you, you've got to push back.

I suspect if Christians and Muslims would say this they'd find the rest of the world a lot more tolerant.