My God Reasons

[WalterTrull]

With great trepidation and a smoldering concern for my personal safety, I share adolescent intuitive suspicions subsequently supplanted by reasoned belief. (Did j’ya ever notice how fast the Charmin disappears sometimes) Anyway:

Since I started seriously considering the subject, I have felt that there must be God for two basic reasons:

There’s you and there’s me. We are aware of each other and can actually communicate. This would seem impossible for separate entities. So, I reason we are not separate. Not caring much for solipsism, I therefore reason there must be a higher power to which we are subsidiary.

We all die. That’s just ridiculous on the face of it. There should be a few thousand year olds, a bunch of 500 year olds, etc. around. But no, - around, and usually somewhat before, the 100 year mark, we shed this mortal coil. Hmm… suggests a program of which we are not fully aware. Well, I certainly don’t believe it’s a program designed by us.

No religion here, just thoughts.

 

[Sunstone]

Genuinely interesting thoughts! About your second reason, "We all die". There seem to be solid evolutionary and biological reasons for that, so I am not prepared to say the fact we all die is ridiculous.

Thanks for an interesting thread!

 

[Quintessence]

There’s you and there’s me. We are aware of each other and can actually communicate. This would seem impossible for separate entities.

Could you unpack this a little bit? Why does this seem impossible to you?

 

[Laika]

With great trepidation and a smoldering concern for my personal safety, I share adolescent intuitive suspicions subsequently supplanted by reasoned belief. (Did j’ya ever notice how fast the Charmin disappears sometimes) Anyway:

Don't worry. we all have to start somewhere. We all make mistakes, so don't feel discouraged. be curious and ask questions and eventually, you'll look back and realise just how far you've travelled.

Since I started seriously considering the subject, I have felt that there must be God for two basic reasons:

There’s you and there’s me. We are aware of each other and can actually communicate. This would seem impossible for separate entities. So, I reason we are not separate. Not caring much for solipsism, I therefore reason there must be a higher power to which we are subsidiary.

To break this down you appear to be saying:

i) that human beings have a shared consciousness
ii) that shared consciousness acts as a higher power

First thoughts are that you are going to rely on some kind of invisible connection between people in order to constitute a shared consciousness. So do you believe in the paranormal or in telepathy or something like that? What kind of mechanism would we have to allow that to happen?

Second, is that you are assuming that, if such a network exists, there must be some central point in order to direct and co-ordinate it. Is it not also possible that a decentralised network exists? (like a spiritual internet?)

Third, there may also be a sort of short cut here in that you could argue that "reality" itself is the product of this higher consciousness and that would solve both of the above issues potentially. Its Like we're all living in the Matrix as a computer simulation or in the Inception movies with a shared but false sense of reality but these movies draw on much older philosophical ideas. (it's just a suggestion if you want to take the idea of "shared consciousness" a step further but don't let it drive you nuts. you might turn into Elon Musk. .)

We all die. That’s just ridiculous on the face of it. There should be a few thousand year olds, a bunch of 500 year olds, etc. around. But no, - around, and usually somewhat before, the 100 year mark, we shed this mortal coil. Hmm… suggests a program of which we are not fully aware. Well, I certainly don’t believe it’s a program designed by us.

I'm assuming your saying that its a program designed by a deity and therefore serves as proof that a deity exists. It is also possible that we have a sort of expiration date due to biological and genetic decay as living organisms.

Can I ask what you make you feel comfortable choosing belief in a deity over belief in a naturalistic explanation? Is there someway in which belief in a deity is superior to the other belief? Is it just more pleasant to think we are all part of some greater purpose embodied in a deity?

 

[WalterTrull]

... About your second reason, "We all die". There seem to be solid evolutionary and biological reasons for that, so I am not prepared to say the fact we all die is ridiculous.

Why should there be “solid evolutionary and biological reasons for that”? I mean, I can’t argue with your statement, but, intrinsically, why should a thing that is, not be?

 

[WalterTrull]

Could you unpack this a little bit? Why does this seem impossible to you?

Sometime during my 74 years, I read “A thing can only be aware of itself.” I don’t remember which philosopher said it, but it stuck. Also, way back in high school geometry, the concept of a common member used in proving congruence lodged somewhere. Analogies percolate.

 

[WalterTrull]

OK Laika, I'll get back to you but you're gonna make me work a bit.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

There’s you and there’s me. We are aware of each other and can actually communicate. This would seem impossible for separate entities.

Why?

 

[Twilight Hue]

With great trepidation and a smoldering concern for my personal safety, I share adolescent intuitive suspicions subsequently supplanted by reasoned belief. (Did j’ya ever notice how fast the Charmin disappears sometimes) Anyway:

Since I started seriously considering the subject, I have felt that there must be God for two basic reasons:

There’s you and there’s me. We are aware of each other and can actually communicate. This would seem impossible for separate entities. So, I reason we are not separate. Not caring much for solipsism, I therefore reason there must be a higher power to which we are subsidiary.

We all die. That’s just ridiculous on the face of it. There should be a few thousand year olds, a bunch of 500 year olds, etc. around. But no, - around, and usually somewhat before, the 100 year mark, we shed this mortal coil. Hmm… suggests a program of which we are not fully aware. Well, I certainly don’t believe it’s a program designed by us.

No religion here, just thoughts.

Well it stands to reason the the universe was around well before humans emerged.

This kind of "window" stays open for only so long.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Brother makes a good point.

 

[WalterTrull]

To break this down you appear to be saying:
i) that human beings have a shared consciousness

Only apparently

that shared consciousness acts as a higher power

I don't think so . I feel that what appears as a shared consciousness is actually only one consciousness. I make no assumption of Deity in the classical sense. That what seems to separate is only a matter of perspective. (Woops, getting a little farther into my philosophy than I had planned. Oh well, might as well continue.)

you could argue that "reality" itself is the product of this higher consciousness.

Yup

I was fascinated by the Matrix movie, - gettin’ there guys. I also loved “Visit to a Small Planet” which highlights a whole ‘nuther growing pain of self-awareness and self-control.

I'm assuming your saying that its a program designed by a deity and therefore serves as proof that a deity exists.

I suppose I misspoke with the program metaphor. I believe there must be God, just not necessarily a Deity. System might be better than program. Although, even system seems a bit artificial. We tend to perceive singularities as systems, I’m guessing so as to focus on small areas of the whole. Ah hah! Perspectives? Consciousness appears to become more and more self-aware and perspectives become clearer. Possibly, that developing clarity could appear as shedding a skin or something of that ilk. Nature is certainly full of metamorphic analogies. (You may have noticed, - I like analogies and metaphors.)

I realize that as we delve, I have not explained or elaborated on many of my reasonings. Maybe there’ll be time and space. It’s really good to have a forum like this to force me to organize my thoughts. It's even possible I'll have to re-think. Cool.

(I do hope you can forgive my grammar. My high school English teacher would be appalled)

 

[Laika]

Only apparently



I don't think so . I feel that what appears as a shared consciousness is actually only one consciousness. I make no assumption of Deity in the classical sense. That what seems to separate is only a matter of perspective. (Woops, getting a little farther into my philosophy than I had planned. Oh well, might as well continue.)



Yup

I was fascinated by the Matrix movie, - gettin’ there guys. I also loved “Visit to a Small Planet” which highlights a whole ‘nuther growing pain of self-awareness and self-control.



I suppose I misspoke with the program metaphor. I believe there must be God, just not necessarily a Deity. System might be better than program. Although, even system seems a bit artificial. We tend to perceive singularities as systems, I’m guessing so as to focus on small areas of the whole. Ah hah! Perspectives? Consciousness appears to become more and more self-aware and perspectives become clearer. Possibly, that developing clarity could appear as shedding a skin or something of that ilk. Nature is certainly full of metamorphic analogies. (You may have noticed, - I like analogies and metaphors.)

I realize that as we delve, I have not explained or elaborated on many of my reasonings. Maybe there’ll be time and space. It’s really good to have a forum like this to force me to organize my thoughts. It's even possible I'll have to re-think. Cool.

(I do hope you can forgive my grammar. My high school English teacher would be appalled)

I have no problems understanding you. you're grammar is fine. your post reads as a "stream of consciousness" which is ok. So, no worries. [Edit: I'm pretty sure that using internet forums has changed the way I write and speak and it is a lot more informal than it used to be.]

If you want your own personal thread to express and expand on your own thoughts, you may want to try the Journals sub-forum. People tend to accept its more personal and so you can usually be a lot more comfortable and open there than on the main forums.

 

[WalterTrull]

If you want your own personal thread to express and expand on your own thoughts, you may want to try the Journals sub-forum. People tend to accept its more personal and so you can usually be a lot more comfortable and open there than on the main forums.

Thanks, I'll look into that. Although, a good flame can sometimes be quite constructive.

 

[YmirGF]

With great trepidation and a smoldering concern for my personal safety, I share adolescent intuitive suspicions subsequently supplanted by reasoned belief. (Did j’ya ever notice how fast the Charmin disappears sometimes) Anyway:

Hehe ... I just knew it wasn't me. So you're the one. *Feverishly makes notes*

Since I started seriously considering the subject, I have felt that there must be God for two basic reasons:

Um, ok.

There’s you and there’s me. We are aware of each other and can actually communicate. This would seem impossible for separate entities. So, I reason we are not separate. Not caring much for solipsism, I therefore reason there must be a higher power to which we are subsidiary.

I am a bit puzzled by the idea that communication would seem impossible. I have studied wild deer in my neck of the woods for 9 years plus and can communicate with them in a rudimentary way. I can see it in their demeanor and their eyes that they understand something I am doing. I talk to them in calm reassuring tones and even the fawns will come to within 6 feet away whilst adult females, never males, will come as near as a foot away. This shows me they have some kind of cognitive function even if it is greatly different from our own. That they can discern my good intentions and my bribe of slices of delicious apples is a bonus.

It's when I make a clicking sound on my palate and they come running (literally) that I know they understand at least something. In that respect, very real communication IS happening. Plus, they have a memory that seems to exceed 6 months. So, I don't get why you think that being separate implies no communication. Assuage that concern and I'll give you a cookie.

We all die. That’s just ridiculous on the face of it. There should be a few thousand year olds, a bunch of 500 year olds, etc. around. But no, - around, and usually somewhat before, the 100 year mark, we shed this mortal coil. Hmm… suggests a program of which we are not fully aware. Well, I certainly don’t believe it’s a program designed by us.

Who knows it could be a design feature (or flaw) or it could be the result of adaptation or lack thereof as we wear our bodies out.

No religion here, just thoughts.

Whew. Thank god for small mercies, eh?

So, to recap, you think there might be a god because we can communicate and that we die. M'kay.

Thanks for the soapbox on a topic not about Trump.

*sigh*

PS: Welcome to the nuthouse known affectionately as RF. You seem smarter than the average garden gnome so I hope your stay remains a pleasant one.

 

[Treks]

Is an average garden gnome. Can confirm.

 

[SalixIncendium]

There’s you and there’s me. We are aware of each other and can actually communicate. This would seem impossible for separate entities. So, I reason we are not separate. Not caring much for solipsism, I therefore reason there must be a higher power to which we are subsidiary.

Still pondering this before I give my kneejerk reaction.

We all die. That’s just ridiculous on the face of it. There should be a few thousand year olds, a bunch of 500 year olds, etc. around. But no, - around, and usually somewhat before, the 100 year mark, we shed this mortal coil. Hmm… suggests a program of which we are not fully aware. Well, I certainly don’t believe it’s a program designed by us.

It depends how you are defining death. Let's assume you're speaking of these carbon based vehicles we drive. You're limiting your thought process to humans (and/or mammals) alone. There are certainly carbon based life forms that arguably have a consciousness that extends beyond 100 years.

 

[WalterTrull]

Is an average garden gnome. Can confirm.

Gnomish arise! Loose your horticultural bonds of slavery! Become a travel shill. Open enrollment. (Non-refundable application fee applies.)

 

[Thief]

With great trepidation and a smoldering concern for my personal safety, I share adolescent intuitive suspicions subsequently supplanted by reasoned belief. (Did j’ya ever notice how fast the Charmin disappears sometimes) Anyway:

Since I started seriously considering the subject, I have felt that there must be God for two basic reasons:

There’s you and there’s me. We are aware of each other and can actually communicate. This would seem impossible for separate entities. So, I reason we are not separate. Not caring much for solipsism, I therefore reason there must be a higher power to which we are subsidiary.

We all die. That’s just ridiculous on the face of it. There should be a few thousand year olds, a bunch of 500 year olds, etc. around. But no, - around, and usually somewhat before, the 100 year mark, we shed this mortal coil. Hmm… suggests a program of which we are not fully aware. Well, I certainly don’t believe it’s a program designed by us.

No religion here, just thoughts.

by post I express myself and you read
the same in return

if we were closer....I speak and you listen
and the same in return

we are separate

in the next life we share thought and feeling.....directly
not so separate

 

[WalterTrull]

It depends how you are defining death. Let's assume you're speaking of these carbon based vehicles we drive. You're limiting your thought process to humans (and/or mammals) alone. There are certainly carbon based life forms that arguably have a consciousness that extends beyond 100 years.

My suggestion is simply that many of us see death as and ending. That it appears so arbitrary and unreasonable, implies to me that we may only be viewing a life segment. Metamorphosis in nature is rather fascinating. I doubt that a caterpillar has much if any awareness of a butterfly. (but I digress,- it’s a knack of mine.) It also implies to me that “carbon based” is likely a delusion. Consciousness based seems much more likely. If consciousness based, whose?

 

[SalixIncendium]

There’s you and there’s me. We are aware of each other and can actually communicate. This would seem impossible for separate entities. So, I reason we are not separate. Not caring much for solipsism, I therefore reason there must be a higher power to which we are subsidiary.

I'm awake and better prepared to address this.

Why does it have to be a higher power to which we are subsidiary? Is there a reason that you can see that we are not one with that power?

My suggestion is simply that many of us see death as and ending. That it appears so arbitrary and unreasonable, implies to me that we may only be viewing a life segment. Metamorphosis in nature is rather fascinating. I doubt that a caterpillar has much if any awareness of a butterfly. (but I digress,- it’s a knack of mine.) It also implies to me that “carbon based” is likely a delusion. Consciousness based seems much more likely. If consciousness based, whose?

Your perspective that our carbon based vehicles are a delusion is very similar to mine. I view it more as me driving a car that eventually dies, but we live on. I see our consciousness (or more accurately life energy, because consciousness, for me, implies mental awareness) is immortal (save the mental awareness). But back to my previous statement above, I see death as both the end of a cycle and the beginning of a new one (like a calendar year), not an absolute end.