• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

My Issue With The 2008 Second Amendment Decision

Skwim

Veteran Member
No I am not, and to restrict ownership of guns is infringement of the right mentioned in the amendment.
Not really. Governments can and do restrict ownership to . . .

Persons under indictment for, or convicted of, any felony crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year

Fugitives from justice

Persons who are unlawful users of, or addicted to, any controlled substance

Persons who have been declared by a court as mental defectives or have been committed to a mental institution

Illegal aliens or aliens who were admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa

Persons who have been dishonorably discharged from the Armed Forces

Persons who have renounced their United States citizenship

Persons subject to certain types of restraining orders

Persons who have been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence
source


The amendment specifically does not mention a time, and your ad hoc addition of 'present need' is a mere convenience to your poor argument.
Correct, because like all the Amendments they become effective at the time of ratification, so there's no need to mention any time.

.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
To understand the ruling I think it would be wise to read the founding fathers personal views on the ownership and use of firearms outside the constraints of the wording of the second amendment, it may make a little more sense to you.
You mean it doesn't mean what they meant to say? That the founding fathers lacked the ability to properly express themselves?

Forgive me for blowing off your idea, but I don't buy it.

.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
You make some good points, although why would there need to be a separate amendment which allows the government to arm its own military force? It's like saying that soldiers have a right to wear uniforms. Or that members of the swimming team have a right to swim. It's implied in the job title and would include whatever standard equipment is needed.

"Many in the Founding generation believed that governments are prone to use soldiers to oppress the people. English history suggested that this risk could be controlled by permitting the government to raise armies (consisting of full-time paid troops) only when needed to fight foreign adversaries. For other purposes, such as responding to sudden invasions or other emergencies, the government could rely on a militia that consisted of ordinary civilians who supplied their own weapons and received some part-time, unpaid military training."
source
So the Second Amendment was drafted to insure such a militia could be created.

.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
We have the National Guard. Plus, so far no one has seen any need to establish such a well regulated militia. Not a member of such a well regulated militia, then no Constitutional right to keep and bear arms, IMO.
Ah another person who doesn't do research. Open mouth insert foot.

Section 46-103 – Idaho State Legislature
TITLE 46
MILITIA AND MILITARY AFFAIRS
CHAPTER 1
STATE MILITIA — ORGANIZATION AND STAFF
46-103. State militia — Division into classes. The militia of the state of Idaho shall be divided into three (3) classes, to wit:
The national guard, the organized militia, and the unorganized militia. The national guard shall consist of enlisted personnel between the ages of seventeen (17) and sixty-four (64), organized and equipped and armed as provided in the national defense act, and of commissioned officers between the ages of eighteen (18)and sixty-four (64) years, who shall be appointed and commissioned by the governor as commander-in-chief, in conformity with the provisions of the national defense act, the rules and regulations promulgated thereunder, and as authorized by the provisions of this act. The organized militia shall include any portion of the unorganized militia called into service by the governor, and not federally recognized. The unorganized militia shall include all of the militia of the state of Idaho not included in the national guard or the organized militia.
History:
[(46-103) 1927, ch. 261, sec. 3, p. 510; I.C.A., sec. 45-103; am. 1957, ch. 174, sec. 2, p. 312
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
What do you say is the "obvious intent" of the Second Amendment?

Several of the state analogs of the amendment specified that the right included self-defense among its purposes. The Framers of the Second Amendment were certainly familiar with these declarations in state constitutions. The Framers of the Second Amendment could have included such a provision, but chose not to.
To prevent the federal government from taking away weapons of the people.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
To prevent the federal government from taking away weapons of the people.
One doesn't need to say anything about well-regulated militias or the security of a free state in order to prohibit "the federal government from taking away weapons of the people". Right?
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
One doesn't need to say anything about well-regulated militias or the security of a free state in order to prohibit "the federal government from taking away weapons of the people". Right?
Yes and no. Highlighting the most important purpose is preventative from later claims that it serves no purpose. But that doesn't change what was the clear intent: to prevent the federal government from taking weapons away from the people.

Are you arguing that such was not their intent?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
One doesn't need to say anything about well-regulated militias or the security of a free state in order to prohibit "the federal government from taking away weapons of the people". Right?
Yes and no.
How was it possible for you to state the "obvious intent" of the amendment without mentioning anything about well-regulated militias or the security of a free state?

How do people's privately owned handguns relate to the security of a free state?
 

Stanyon

WWMRD?
You mean it doesn't mean what they meant to say? That the founding fathers lacked the ability to properly express themselves?
Forgive me for blowing off your idea, but I don't buy it.
.

You don't have to buy it but I would suggest a little personal research before throwing the proverbial baby out with the bathwater because you don't think that is how it is, if you aren't willing to follow up on possible answers/factors involved in the decision making process then why bother asking? Sure the second amendment could have been worded better to avoid this nonsense but to understand the writers stances on personal ownership and use of firearms would go a long way to understanding the intent behind the amendment and the 2008 decision.
Samples:

“A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well-digested plan is requisite; and their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories as tend to render them independent on others for essential, particularly for military, supplies.”
-John Adams, speech to US Congress January 8, 1790

“No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.”
– Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

“I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.”
– Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

“What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms.”
– Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

“The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes…. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”
– Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

“A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks.” – Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 19, 1785

“The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed.”
– Thomas Jefferson, letter to to John Cartwright, 5 June 1824

“On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed.”
– Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823

“I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence … I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy.”
– Thomas Jefferson, letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778

“To disarm the people…s the most effectual way to enslave them.”
– George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adooption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788

“I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers.”
– George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788

“That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural and safe defense of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that, in all cases, the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.”
-George Mason, Virginia Declaration of Rights, June 12 1776
 
Last edited:

Curious George

Veteran Member
How was it possible for you to state the "obvious intent" of the amendment without mentioning anything about well-regulated militias or the security of a free state?

How do people's privately owned handguns relate to the security of a free state?
Do you agree or disagree that the intent of the second amendment was to prevent the federal government from taking weapons away from the people?
 

siti

Well-Known Member
Actually Justice Stevens' dissent in Heller most thoroughly examines the phrase "to keep and bear arms" in the Second Amendment:

“To keep and bear Arms”

Although the Court’s discussion of these words treats them as two “phrases”--as if they read “to keep” and “to bear”--they describe a unitary right: to possess arms if needed for military purposes and to use them in conjunction with military activities.

As a threshold matter, it is worth pausing to note an oddity in the Court’s interpretation of “to keep and bear arms.” Unlike the Court of Appeals, the Court does not read that phrase to create a right to possess arms for “lawful, private purposes.” Parker v. District of Columbia, 478 F. 3d 370, 382 (CADC 2007). Instead, the Court limits the Amendment’s protection to the right “to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation.” Ante, at 19. No party or amicus urged this interpretation; the Court appears to have fashioned it out of whole cloth. But although this novel limitation lacks support in the text of the Amendment, the Amendment’s text doesjustify a different limitation: the “right to keep and bear arms” protects only a right to possess and use firearms in connection with service in a state-organized militia.

The term “bear arms” is a familiar idiom; when used unadorned by any additional words, its meaning is “to serve as a soldier, do military service, fight.” 1 Oxford English Dictionary 634 (2d ed. 1989). It is derived from the Latin arma ferre, which, translated literally, means “to bear [ferre] war equipment [arma].” Brief for Professors of Linguistics and English as Amici Curiae 19. One 18th-century dictionary defined “arms” as “weapons of offence, or armour of defence,” 1 S. Johnson, A Dictionary of theEnglish Language(1755), and another contemporaneous source explained that “[ b ]y arms, we understand those instruments of offence generally made use of in war; such as firearms, swords, & c. By weapons, we more particularly mean instruments of other kinds (exclusive of fire-arms), made use of as offensive, on special occasions.” 1 J. Trusler, The Distinction Between Words Esteemed Synonymous in the English Language37 (1794).8 Had the Framers wished to expand the meaning of the phrase “bear arms” to encompass civilian possession and use, they could have done so by the addition of phrases such as “for the defense of themselves,” as was done in the Pennsylvania and Vermont Declarations of Rights. The unmodified use of “bear arms,” by contrast, refers most naturally to a military purpose, as evidenced by its use in literally dozens of contemporary texts.9 The absence of any reference to civilian uses of weapons tailors the text of the Amendment to the purpose identified in its preamble.10 But when discussing these words, the Court simply ignores the preamble.

The Court argues that a “qualifying phrase that contradicts the word or phrase it modifies is unknown this side of the looking glass.” Ante, at 15. But this fundamentally fails to grasp the point. The stand-alone phrase “bear arms” most naturally conveys a military meaning unless the addition of a qualifying phrase signals that a different meaning is intended. When, as in this case, there is no such qualifier, the most natural meaning is the military one; and, in the absence of any qualifier, it is all the more appropriate to look to the preamble to confirm the natural meaning of the text.11 The Court’s objection is particularly puzzling in light of its own contention that the addition of the modifier “against” changes the meaning of “bear arms.” Compare ante, at 10 (defining “bear arms” to mean “carrying [a weapon] for a particular purpose—confrontation”), with ante, at 12 (“The phrase ‘bear Arms’ also had at the time of the founding an idiomatic meaning that was significantly different from its natural meaning: to serve as a soldier, do military service, fight or to wage war. But it unequivocally bore that idiomatic meaning only when followed by the preposition ‘against.’ ” (citations and some internal quotation marks omitted)).​

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER
But that's not exactly how James Madison and George Mason interpreted it and certainly Jefferson was convinced that a man should be intimately familiar with his gun "from infancy". So it is clear to me that whilst it may be that the second amendment was intended to provide for military protection of 'the state' - the means by which this was to be achieved was by ensuring no restrictions on individual gun ownership.

There are differences of opinion regarding how much direct influence the 1689 Bill of Rights across the pond had on the second amendment - but there are obvious parallels...prior to the Bill of Rights, James II had used gun restrictions to selectively disarm Protestants leaving Papists with an obvious and unfair advantage in a conflict. The Bill of Rights affirmed the equal right of Protestants to "have Arms for their defence" but subject to any laws restricting this right (for everyone) that might be enacted by Parliament. The Bill of Rights also forbade the King from having a standing army or raising taxes (which in those days was mostly done to support wars) without the consent of Parliament. These clearly influenced the Virginia Declaration of Rights from which the 'preamble' under scrutiny in this discussion is drawn directly.

I honestly think it is difficult - taking the historical context into account, and convincing legal semantic opinion notwithstanding - to interpret the second amendment as anything other than a declaration of the individual right to bear arms. To me, the question is not whether that is what the second amendment meant, but whether it remains relevant in the 21st century context.
 
Last edited:

siti

Well-Known Member
How do people's privately owned handguns relate to the security of a free state?
But they certainly did in 1791. That's the point at issue in this thread - you just can't sensibly interpret the 'original intent' of the second amendment in the context of 21st century security issues. The OP, your comments and Justice Stevens' remarks that you quoted are all taking the amendment out of its historical context in terms of what might have been meant by 'militia' (i.e. a sufficiently weapons-proficient gun-owning populace), whilst the pro-gun people (in their various shades) seem to be taking the individual 'right to bear arms' aspect out of its 'state security' context. No wonder there is no resolution - both sides are making arguments that are both anachronous and decontextualized.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
"Many in the Founding generation believed that governments are prone to use soldiers to oppress the people. English history suggested that this risk could be controlled by permitting the government to raise armies (consisting of full-time paid troops) only when needed to fight foreign adversaries. For other purposes, such as responding to sudden invasions or other emergencies, the government could rely on a militia that consisted of ordinary civilians who supplied their own weapons and received some part-time, unpaid military training."
source
So the Second Amendment was drafted to insure such a militia could be created.

.

Interesting. The source you link also had this part:

The Second Amendment conceded nothing to the Anti-Federalists’ desire to sharply curtail the military power of the federal government, which would have required substantial changes in the original Constitution. Yet the Amendment was easily accepted because of widespread agreement that the federal government should not have the power to infringe the right of the people to keep and bear arms, any more than it should have the power to abridge the freedom of speech or prohibit the free exercise of religion.

This would suggest that the Amendment still focuses on the idea of the people having the right to keep and bear arms. If it's simply a matter of delineating a governmental right to raise an army, equip its soldiers (whether in the form of a regular army or national guard), then that right was already covered in the original Constitution.

Granted, it's a lot different now than it was during the Founders' time, but likewise, it's also different in the structure of society and the nature of law enforcement, which is also an important issue in terms of the Second Amendment and gun rights. While the concept of the militia may be outdated, there are still those who believe that the government can't adequately protect the public from internal, domestic crime. We have very little to worry about in terms of "foreign invaders," but common thugs and street criminals still remain a problem. That's a practical consideration that would need to be addressed before any meaningful regulation on guns can be implemented.

I would suggest, as a compromise, that if we want to remove the right of people to own firearms, the government should offer a guarantee of protection and be required to give generous financial compensation to victims of crime. That would, in effect, force the gun control advocates to put their money where their mouth is.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
I would suggest, as a compromise, that if we want to remove the right of people to own firearms, the government should offer a guarantee of protection and be required to give generous financial compensation to victims of crime. That would, in effect, force the gun control advocates to put their money where their mouth is.

Except it would be all tax payers paying the bill not merely gun control advocates. You need to establish a system in which gun control advocates are on a mandatory government list (hah) in order to create a special tax only applicable to those advocates(hah). All revenue for the "advocate" tax would need to be set aside which can not be used by the government to fund other programs (like it does with Medicare, SS, hah). I do not see advocates supporting an enrollment nor the tax.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Do you agree or disagree that the intent of the second amendment was to prevent the federal government from taking weapons away from the people?
Emphatically disagree! If that were the sine qua non of the Second Amendment, then there would be no need and no reason whatsoever to begin with the initial clause about a well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state. The Framers knew quite well how to write a sentence to express what they intended. If all they wanted to do is to “was to prevent the federal government from taking weapons away from the people,” they would have stated a sentence like the First Amendment: “Congress shall make no law that takes any person's weapons away from him.” That isn't even close to what the Second Amendment states.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
But that's not exactly how James Madison and George Mason interpreted it
What is not "how James Madison and George Mason interpreted it"? (I assume by "it" you are referring to the Second Amendment.) Be sure to cite your sources.

So it is clear to me that whilst it may be that the second amendment was intended to provide for military protection of 'the state' - the means by which this was to be achieved was by ensuring no restrictions on individual gun ownership.
The Second Amendment was not interpreted by the Framers or others at the time as "ensuring no restrictions on individual gun ownership." There were a variety of laws regulating guns and other arms at the time, which we can only assume were considered constitutional. See Justice Breyer's dissent in Heller.

I honestly think it is difficult - taking the historical context into account, and convincing legal semantic opinion notwithstanding - to interpret the second amendment as anything other than a declaration of the individual right to bear arms.
Then why start the sentence with that prefatory clause about a well-regulated militia and the security of a free state? The Framers obviously knew how to secure a right without such superfluities.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
But they certainly did in 1791. That's the point at issue in this thread - you just can't sensibly interpret the 'original intent' of the second amendment in the context of 21st century security issues. The OP, your comments and Justice Stevens' remarks that you quoted are all taking the amendment out of its historical context in terms of what might have been meant by 'militia' (i.e. a sufficiently weapons-proficient gun-owning populace), whilst the pro-gun people (in their various shades) seem to be taking the individual 'right to bear arms' aspect out of its 'state security' context. No wonder there is no resolution - both sides are making arguments that are both anachronous and decontextualized.
It's the Heller majority that "tak[es] the amendment out of its historical contex". Obviously the amendment has nothing to do with individuals being able to possess not-disassembled handguns in the home. The law Heller struck down merely forbade the registration in the city of one type of gun and the possession of that one particular type of gun unless it was disassembled. (One might note that it was also the most deadly type of gun, and the type of gun most often used in the commission of criminal offenses.)
 
Top