My life in the ICOC... and why I think it's a cult.

[Scuba Pete]

As I begin this, I need to point out a flaw in my personality: I am a man of extremes. I embrace vocations, avocations and hobbies with intensity: I do them all the way. I was not content to be a mere grease monkey, I was master certified in both Automotive as well as diesel. Rather than being content to learn how to climb, I became an instructor. I am also an instructor trainer (I teach other instructors) for First Aid, Scuba DIving and even fishing. Although I abhor violence, I am in the middle of being certified as a firearms instructor for the NRA. I almost always exceed the minimum of training whenever I set my mind to learn something.

So it was with Christianity.

I was converted from UU to Christianity in the Fall of '75. Crossroads church of Christ was known to many churches of Christ for it's zeal to convert the world to Christ. In fact, many considered us a cult even then, including my mother. The UF paper (The Independent Florida Alligator) once pointed out that there were three things that happened to ALL students. 1) Spend more than an hour in a line to get a class, 2) Be hit by a bicycle, and 3) Be invited to a Soul Talk. Our small groups aimed at converting as many as possible were called Soul Talks, and we studied the Scriptures in such a way as to convict students to Christianity.

There was a definite hierarchy in the church and part of it was scriptural. We had two wonderful elders, Brothers Bartley and White. Brother White was the Registrar for UofF. Chuck Lucas was the minister, Sam Laing the Campus minister, Sherwin McIntosh was the music minister and we had a few others as well along the way. Below the ministers were the Brothers who were training for the ministry, and this was normally the campus ministry. Kip and Randy McKean, Rick Bauer, Barry Mahfood as well as many other dear friends were a part of this. For the most part, these men comprised the bulk of the Soul Talk Leaders and their girlfriends led the girl's Soul Talks.

We also had "Prayer Partners". These relationships were highly encouraged, though not required. OK, they were HIGHLY encouraged. A younger Christian was encouraged by their older mentor. Sins were confessed and goals were set and there was a air of holding each other accountable. George Grima and Walter Evans were my "older" prayer partners and I will always consider them GREAT friends. It is my belief that these relationships honored God and were not extreme. Gentleness and patience seemed to be the common denominator.

To be blunt, I loved this challenging environment and I was quite productive. As a student I was responsible for more than a dozen being brought to Christ. Fortunately, my pride was also evident and so I never became a Soul Talk Leader.

(Stay tuned for part two)

 

[Scuba Pete]

Kip McKean and Martin Bently had left for their first ministries just before I was converted. News of their respective ministries were presented from the pulpit often and we always enjoyed it when they returned to speak at a retreat. Crossroads was still the epicenter of "Total Commitment" Christianity. Kip seemed to be a parody of Chuck Lucas. He accentuated some of his characteristics in a way that was almost comical. It was even more comical to see some of Kip's devotees do the same to him.

To be sure, I was quite content at Crossroads, and saw no need to increase my commitment to the cause of Christ. I had sacrificed a lot of time, energy and money and yet I still had a LOT of pride to deal with. I was studying Russian with the goal being to be a missionary behind the iron curtain. I was way too busy evangelizing to devote time to my studies and I never finished college. I endured the criticisms of my friends and family since the Scriptures told me to expect it.

Yes, there were problems at Crossroads. There were some items that were "OK" on face value, but were a part of the control mindset that was yet to come. We were taught to avoid any member that fell away, something which I could not do. I did try, and ultimately made a mess of many relationships because of this. One of my room mates who I had converted, Ken Cross fell away during the summer break. We were both abusive of each other the following quarter. I sorely wish I could apologize to him for my part.

Soon after this, Kip moved to Boston: we were simply amazed at his progress. You see, Crossroads had just had it's first year where more people were baptized than there were days in the year. "and the Lord added to them daily" was a favorite verse. It only took Boston a year or two to eclipse our mark. WOW! The Lord must surely be with Kip.

So it was that the ministry at Crossroads seemed to become WAY more legalistic. Gone was the earlier compassion in favor of "holding each other accountable". My business was failing due to the seasonal nature of living in a college town, do I looked to Orlando for work. My move was criticized by my prayer partners, but my mind was set. I joined the Crossroads planting in Orlando: the University church of Christ.

I was assigned a prayer partner and immediately made into a Soul Talk Leader. My how things changed when I moved from Gainesville. Within a couple of years, the church leadership (Alex Hull, the minister and a few others) flew to Boston to discuss "Reconstruction". Now reconstruction probably means many things to many people. For me, it means the death of the local church. The brothers and their wives were trained in how to do individual reconstructions and the melee ensued. A guy named Terry and his wife did my wife and I. We were forced to admit at how miserable our Christianity was and to delve into our past lives in order to dredge up any "hidden" sins. This was about as intrusive as it comes and many of the faithful left our congregation with a number leaving the church altogether. I was quite hesitant and so they flew me and my wife to Boston for the World Evangelism Seminar. Dave Weger was the lead evangelist for the Orlando church of Christ (our new name) and he and I had some pretty intense talks. Ultimately, I submitted to the leadership. While in Boston I was reacquainted with many of my former friends from Crossroads. Crossroads had taken the unpopular stance and elected to not go through a reconstruction. Many left to join Boston instead.

 

[Scuba Pete]

When we got back from Boston, I was assigned an older and younger "Discipler". This was the new name for Prayer Partners and the change was DRAMATIC. Instead of being "partners" our relationship now had the feel of master and student. Our younger "disciplees" were having marriage problems. HEY, so were we? Why were we being asked to provide guidance where we were failing? We were told to simply trust God. As for my discipler, I had 7 (seven) in less than five days. Three I never to to meet with and two gave me the phone call as I was on my way to meet them for the first time. THIS WAS CRAZY!

Then it happened. I was working as an auto technician for Goodyear in Winter Park. They had just fired the Service Manager in their Daytona Beach location and they made me an offer I could not refuse. I had to take the position or leave the company. Ouch!

In a panic, I called my discipler du jour and he said he would get right back to me. This meant that he had to call his discipler, who called his, who called his until it got all the way to Dave Weger. Normally, the message would trickle back down, but Dave had plans for me. An hour or two later, Dave called me: I was surprised! "Bag it" was his decision. "We will put you on full time!"

I wasn't expecting this at all. Go full time? This made me think. Do I really believe that THIS is the way?

No. I do not. This clarified the whole issue. Intellectual honesty is quite important to me. The current regimen of disciplers was abusive on almost every level. I could not in good conscience continue the charade: I became the Service Manager for the Daytona Beach Goodyear.

And so I fell away from the church. I was so brainwashed that I felt that this was the only church that I should worry about. Perhaps when my heart is right, I will be able to re-align my life to God. But though I fell away, I did not stop my studying or meditations. No, they were no longer legalistic daily occurances, but they were far more fruitful.

Then came the call. One of my former disciplers (one that I never got to meet) called me. Randy McKean wanted to talk to me. Whoa! So sure, we met at a Perkins and I was completely underwhelmed. I was first hit by his pride. Yes, the prideful one was astonished at the pride of another. Shocked might be a better word. I saw it as confidence in college, but now it smacked of nothing but pride.

A week later, I got another call from Randy: he was having a problem with his father's diesel. I met him, diagnosed and fixed the problem and was ABOUT to leave. Randy stopped me. It seemed to him that God disabled his car so that he and I could meet again. I pointed out to Randy, that it was merely negligence on his part and that running a diesel out of fuel can damage the pump and fuel distributor.

 

[Scuba Pete]

So here we are on my fourth post in this series and most of you have probably left. That's OK as this has been cathartic for me.

The ICOC exerted an abnormal influence over those who belonged to it. Money, relationships and even sex were governed by your discipler. Their decisions become your decisions. Any deviation was seen as having a bad attitude. They corrupted our desire to be fully committed to Jesus to being fully committed to our disciplers. No longer was this a personal relationship with Jesus, but a corporate one.

I have probably missed many of the abuses: I did try to forget. Please feel free to ask me anything. I will try to answer.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I'm still following. It seems to me, moving to Daytona was the correct decision for you. Organised religion can be good or bad for your spiritual well being. In your heart, you know what is right for your family and your faith. If your church does not feel quite right, it probably is not going to satisfy your needs.

 

[!Fluffy!]

*shiver* Yours is a classic tale of how religious legalism operates, how insidious it is.

Pete, are you acquainted with Plain Truth Ministries? Greg Albrecht went through (and unfortunately in his overzealous journey subjected others to) some of what happened with you, and was called to repent and then minister to those seeking freedom from and recovering from legalism. The Plain Truth Magazine is free, I get it and my family and friends look forward to passing it around every time I get a new one.

From Plain Truth Ministries:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]Could you be a legalist?—Take the quiz![/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Answer yes or no to the following questions: [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]1) God's love for me depends on what I do.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]2) Meeting the expectations of others, especially those in my congregation or in positions of authority, are paramount.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]3) Moral and ethical questions are usually black and white and only made into fuzzy shades of gray by hand-wringing, bleeding-heart types.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]4) I try hard to obey God and it irritates me that others think they can get away with avoiding the same level of dedication.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]5) I fall short because I don't have enough faith, or because I haven't prayed enough, or because I just need to be a better person.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]6) God is predisposed to be angry with me because I am a sinner. My main goal in life is to try to gain God's favor by doing things that will impress him.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]7) My sense of spiritual well-being is linked to a Christian leader or membership in my church rather than a personal relationship with God.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]8) I tell my children not to do something in church or around other Christian families that I allow in my home.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]9) I believe my church is God's true church and that most other Christians may be sincere, but are sincerely wrong.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]10) The exterior choices a person makes in what they wear, hairstyle, piercings, tattoos, etc. is a clear indication of that person's character.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]11) I sometimes worry that people might take advantage of grace if it's preached too much —people might think they can do anything they want.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]12) After being around Christians for a while I feel drained —weary of putting up a false front. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]13) When I happen to miss a service or activity of my church I feel guilty.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]14) I will likely get into heaven, even though I'm far from perfect, because I have tried to be a basically good person and God will take that into account.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]How did you do? [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We'd like to hear from you...[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Return to Recovering from Legalism Home Page[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Confessions of a Recovering Legalist[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Does Being Good Do Any Good?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Tell us your story...[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Read what others are saying... Selected Comments[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Resources to help you deal with legalism...[/FONT]

 

[Scuba Pete]

*shiver* Yours is a classic tale of how religious legalism operates, how insidious it is.

Oh, legalism is there, but I don't think it's the driving force. For those in the upper echelons of leadership, the real deceiver is power. The more you get, the more you want. Legalism can be a tool used by those with a lust for power, but that is the real underlying motivation for many.

Most really want to do ALL THEY CAN for God. After all, we are called to be living sacrifices and all that. I would guess that a full 98% of all the brothers and sisters were so motivated. Now THEY gave up their freedom for a system that was legalistic to the core. But it wasn't driven by their own legalism, but rather their love for God.

Pete, are you acquainted with Plain Truth Ministries? [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://www.ptm.org/legalism/legalismResources01.htm[/FONT]

I am not. I am going to various churches right now, including the church of Christ, just not the "International" flavor. However, the church of Christ I was regularly attending took a stance on Haliburton's war that I found untenable and have stopped attending with them.

 

[yuvgotmel]

I'm confused.

First of all, what is the ICOC and what does it stand for?

Secondly, it sounds Christian-ish. So, are you speaking of a Christian cult?

 

[Scuba Pete]

ICOC= International Churches of Christ

Yes, it is a Christian Cult.

 

[Free4all]

Wow, pete that's quite a story - Glad to see that you have come out of it quite well.

 

[Baerly]

Pete, I am so sorry for all the trouble you have gone through, all in the name of love and religion. I have heard about the Boston Movement and I have taught many to stay clear of it. All I know about it I have learned from tracts at the coC I attend.

I would encourage you to attend a coC near you, just make sure it has no affiliation with the ICOC. I have attended a small country coC in Tx. for over fourty years. If I can help at anytime, do give me a holler. I come to this site and go to the same faith threads quite abit. I will pray for you and the trials your going through.

Baerly

 

[Freedomelf]

I've read your posts with interest, and find that many churches, both mainstream and little known, are cultish if they control their followers in any way.....particularly in the manners that you describe. Freedom to choose a religion, and to remain in that religion or not, must be absolute. There must not be any pressure from a church to control what kind of believer you are.....or if you choose to remain a believer. It must be entirely your decision with no coercion.

That's one of the reasons I rejected mainstream religion, because even the biggest ones use damnation and other threats to "save" people.....I do not need saving by a religion. Religion is only useful if it helps you find YOURSELF.....if you can find yourself and the path you are meant to travel on your own, you don't really need religion at all in order to get to heaven. Some people like it, though, in order to have communion with others of similar beliefs. That's why I choose to belong to a church. But if it tried to control me in any way, I would be outta there!

 

[Scuba Pete]

I would encourage you to attend a coC near you, just make sure it has no affiliation with the ICOC.

I have in the past and may do so in the future. The last church of Christ that I was affiliated was way too pro-war. I can't abide in the philosophy of WWJB (Who Would Jesus Bomb). I may do so in the future. I am more closely aligned with the cofC than any denomination. Still, legalism is rampant and few understand the Freedom we have in Christ.

 

[Scuba Pete]

That's one of the reasons I rejected mainstream religion, because even the biggest ones use damnation and other threats to "save" people...

I somewhat disagree with this. There are churches who use the threat of hell to cause people to obey them and not the scriptures. But for the most part, churches try to teach causality which is needed.

The BIGGEST issue I have with almost all churches, large or small, is that they exchanged one system of laws for yet another system of laws. But that is fodder for another thread.

 

[Freedomelf]

I somewhat disagree with this. There are churches who use the threat of hell to cause people to obey them and not the scriptures.

But who wrote the scriptures, and why are they scripture?

I do believe that people should be admonished to do good on earth. That's understandable. But if they are admonished, whether through scripture or doctrine, to believe in a particular religion, that's another thing. If they are told that they will go to hell if they don't believe in a certain church, that's where I draw the line.

 

[Scuba Pete]

If they are told that they will go to hell if they don't believe in a certain church, that's where I draw the line.

You fully missed the point. Or at least it appears that you did. I didn't mention any church, I mentioned causality. We create our own hells here on earth by the poor choices we make. I am certain that eternity is an extension of the hell or heaven we are experiencing right now.

 

[Baerly]

I have in the past and may do so in the future. The last church of Christ that I was affiliated was way too pro-war. I can't abide in the philosophy of WWJB (Who Would Jesus Bomb). I may do so in the future. I am more closely aligned with the cofC than any denomination. Still, legalism is rampant and few understand the Freedom we have in Christ.

Pete, Here is a good lesson. I hope you will check it out. I am sure coming from the ICOC you might have a knee jerk reaction to certain things,but I hope you do not do as some and try to swing all the way over and think we will be saved by grace alone.

We are free from sin and free to choose who we want to serve (Rom.6:16-18). But we are not free from obeying the commandments of the Lord (Acts 10:34,35) (Heb.5:8,9) (John 9:31) (John 14:15,21 ; 15:10,14) (Mt.7:21).

Those who turn from the commandments end up outside the grace of God according to (2Peter 2:20-22).- Notice 2:21

We want to be found in the light of the word of God (Eph.5:8) (1John 1:7) . The only way to do that is by (DOING TRUTH) (John 3:21) (1John 3:7) (Psalm 119:172).

I am not advocation works alone can save us. It takes devotion and trust to please the Lord (1Thess.4:1-3) (Phil.1:27) .

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2265

It is good to see you posting again.

Baerly

 

[gmelrod]

Do you know if this church is still active on the UF campus? I live in SoFla and have friends who go to UF. I may need to warn them. Others I would alert to a good opportunity to push back on another turn or burn legalistic group.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Do you know if this church is still active on the UF campus? I live in SoFla and have friends who go to UF. I may need to warn them. Others I would alert to a good opportunity to push back on another turn or burn legalistic group.

Crossroads is no more. There is an ICOC church in Gainesville, but it's not the Campus church of Christ. That church has gone mainstream cofC.

 

[Scuba Pete]

try to swing all the way over and think we will be saved by grace alone.

We have a completely different view of Grace. You see it as "just gifts", and I see it as absorbing the character of God.

Works is dead. You can not rely on external acts to save you. II Cor 3 teaches this.

Love is alive. God is love. The more we love, the more we act like God. The more we act like God, the more we love. THIS is what grace is really all about. You can see the person saved by grace through their loving actions. The heart is the source of everything and God knows it well.

But this is probably best for another thread... in fact we are discussing that here: Christian Faith and Law