My problem with Christianity

[michel]

Not judgemental at all.You are making the mistake of assuming personal contempt, while I am just stating the obvious. The Crusades and the Inquisition are just a couple of instances that spring to mind. So would you then say the statement, "Ignorance, arrogance and contempt often are disguised as "God's work", couldn't possibly be true?

I am sure that it can be true; as I have said, I would tend to think that there is far more of the Ignorance element incorporated, rather than the last two.

"Ignorance, arrogance and contempt often are disguised as "God's work", is a valid statement - but it does not reflect the fact that, in my view,as a Christian, I believe that any Christian who 'does God's work' in that manner is acting out of ignorance rather than the other two point - Crikey! - after all, the misguided Christian is, as far as he is concerned desperately trying to do the other guy a favour! - even if he doesn't understand that he is doing more harm than good. It is the messenger that you should blame here - not the message.

 

[DreamQuickBook]

While I applaud your self-restraint in not forcing your belief system on fellow human beings, in my experience, the Christians I've met don't share this philosophy,(except in theory), and often go out of their way to prove it.

Yes, but you see, most Christians only hang around other Christians, so most of the time they don't shove their religion down anyone's throat, which is why most Christians always say they don't do this. So when they meet a non-Christian, they just do what they Bible tells them to do: Witness. Now, a Christian doesn't think of "sharing god's love" with someone as shoving their religion down our throats. They don't understand how annoying and aggravating it is. They don't see how self-righteous they appear.

The best way to deal with that situation is to kill them with kindness. Ignore the fact that they are ramming their religion down your throat, and try to identify the insecurities which make them feel like it is necessary to get others to agree with them. Then, when you think you've got that nailed down (it takes a lot of listening) try to help them out with their insecurities. This will do a couple of things right away. One, it will move the momentum away from them talking about how you are going to spend the rest of your life in hell, to talking about who they are as people. Believe me, this is a much more interesting conversation to have. It is much more fun to discover who someone else is, than it is to have them tell you that you are going to hell.

 

[Natas]

Well, I would suggest to you that, no matter how well you are educated, the simple message of 'you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink' - is one that we all know about - and yet a lot of parents forget this simple fact when dealing with children; the ignorance in this case is of the Christian not puting himself in the place of the person he is tryingb to 'save' - but just blindly following what he truly thinks is best for that person - that is ignorance - if only of human nature.

While the lack of empathy on the part of some Christians to non-believers and vice versa is evident, I wouldn't equate that with ignorance.

 

[michel]

While the lack of empathy on the part of some Christians to non-believers and vice versa is evident, I wouldn't equate that with ignorance.

You can think whatever makes you happy - that is your perogative - but it doesn't give you the ability to be right.

 

[Natas]

"Ignorance, arrogance and contempt often are disguised as "God's work", is a valid statement - but it does not reflect the fact that, in my view,as a Christian, I believe that any Christian who 'does God's work' in that manner is acting out of ignorance rather than the other two point

Thanks for being honest and admitting this statement is valid.
I had no doubt, and I'm gratified you agree. I'm not sure I understand why after validating my statement, you insist on saying that, "Any Christian who 'does God's work' in that manner is acting out of ignorance rather than the other two point". Are you now saying it's only valid on one point? Which answer should I believe?

Crikey! - after all, the misguided Christian is, as far as he is concerned desperately trying to do the other guy a favour! - even if he doesn't understand that he is doing more harm than good. It is the messenger that you should blame here - not the message.

The only, "Message", I'm getting here is that Christians are misguided by trying to save unbelievers and doing more harm then good. Is this the point you are trying to convey?

 

[Natas]

You can think whatever makes you happy - that is your perogative - but it doesn't give you the ability to be right.

Thanks for allowing me be happy. I would also like you to think in the way that makes you happy.

There, now that we are both happy, I'd just submit that one's ability to be happy or unhappy is in no way relevant to this thread. n'est pas?

 

[Scott1]

The only, "Message", I'm getting here is that Christians are misguided by trying to save unbelievers and doing more harm then good. Is this the point you are trying to convey?

Geez... I hope that's not what he's saying... one of those "misguided" Christians saved the life of this former atheist... and I'm forever thankful.

 

[michel]

Thanks for allowing me be happy. I would also like you to think in the way that makes you happy.

There, now that we are both happy, I'd just submit that one's ability to be happy or unhappy is in no way relevant to this thread. n'est pas?

I hate to have to admit that I am fluent in French, and what you said above is gramatically incorrect - but that is not the point.

I am not happy - I am not happy because you feel the way you do - You can't get into the 'God belief' Mindset - If I wasn't a Christian, and didn't feel the way I do, I can understand thinking your way - I am personally very sorry that you are totally unable to understand what I believe in. That makes me very sad-I know how wonderful it feels, and I would love to be able to give you a glimpse of what I feel - but, of course, I can't.

It is almost as if we speak different languages.

 

[Natas]

I hate to have to admit that I am fluent in French, and what you said above is gramatically incorrect - but that is not the point.

I concede my French to be totally lacking in fluency.

I am not happy - I am not happy because you feel the way you do - You can't get into the 'God belief' Mindset - If I wasn't a Christian, and didn't feel the way I do, I can understand thinking your way - I am personally very sorry that you are totally unable to understand what I believe in. That makes me very sad-I know how wonderful it feels, and I would love to be able to give you a glimpse of what I feel - but, of course, I can't.

It is almost as if we speak different languages.

Well, in fact Michel, I can, "Get into" the "God belief" mindset, and have posted elsewhere on RF that I am from a very religious family and childhood, was baptized, and attended church every Sunday. So your statement that I somehow, "Can't feel" or understand, "What you believe in", or how, "Wonderful it is", is not valid.

The fact that I no longer believe that way doesn't now preclude me from viewing things from a Christian standpoint, on the contrary, I feel it enables me to have a less narrow field of view.

No, not different languages, (although the, "Crikey", had me wondering), just different beliefs.

 

[Natas]

Welcome Bebop!

But you have to realize that you are under pressure from diverse forces to change on a daily basis, from the environment, the media, governments, spiritual forces, and most of all adverstisements! Do you think that conversing on RF will not result in some kind of change? Whenever you rub up against other people (virtually?) it will always change you.

Sabio

I agree completely, frubals to you Sabio.

 

[BebopBoy]

Thanks everyone for replying, i was astounded by the amount of replies i got, so thanks again. I think I need to clarify a little bit though. The bottom line of what i was trying to say was that the way christianity is built, is that if your not one, you dont go to heaven, therefore any companion you have must be converted or else they will not join you in heaven. Thats basically what im saying, and people cant help it, its the religions fault for making them hostile towards anyone who doesnt accept the same belief as they do. Does that make my question any clearer??? If not please tell me, because i feel i wasnt being clear enough the first time. By the way i wrote that at 4 in the morning, so i tryed to use the spell checker, but i got lazy and said, screw it. ANyways, thanks so much for replying everyone, this is a great forum!

 

[Aqualung]

Thanks everyone for replying, i was astounded by the amount of replies i got, so thanks again. I think I need to clarify a little bit though. The bottom line of what i was trying to say was that the way christianity is built, is that if your not one, you dont go to heaven, therefore any companion you have must be converted or else they will not join you in heaven. Thats basically what im saying, and people cant help it, its the religions fault for making them hostile towards anyone who doesnt accept the same belief as they do. Does that make my question any clearer??? If not please tell me, because i feel i wasnt being clear enough the first time. By the way i wrote that at 4 in the morning, so i tryed to use the spell checker, but i got lazy and said, screw it. ANyways, thanks so much for replying everyone, this is a great forum!

Well, I have only met a few people who actually hostily try to convert people. Al the missionaries I have ever spoken to were always very kind. I think it is only when people inapropriately try to convert people that they become hostile. They go about it the wrong way or at the wrong time, so it becomes hostile on both sides. And, if you had some very important informaiton that you knew was true, woudn't you want your closest friends to knwo about it? They care, they just don't know how to show it.

I'm moving to WA in a few weeks, too, just in case you cared about that random peice of information. I'm going to attend Gonzaga.

 

[BebopBoy]

I'm moving to WA in a few weeks, too, just in case you cared about that random peice of information. I'm going to attend Gonzaga.

Nice Gonazaga's a really nice school, and WA is really pretty (compared to chicago where i used to live). I hope you have fun up here.

But in answer to your post, i think what im really saying is that its not the people, its the religion, because the religion is set up in such a way where everybodys wrong except them. Thats my issue, it doesnt accept other people, or faiths unless they are the same.

 

[michel]

Nice Gonazaga's a really nice school, and WA is really pretty (compared to chicago where i used to live). I hope you have fun up here.

But in answer to your post, i think what im really saying is that its not the people, its the religion, because the religion is set up in such a way where everybodys wrong except them. Thats my issue, it doesnt accept other people, or faiths unless they are the same.

You, of course have the right to think what you will; you must have been very unfortunate in the Christians you have met;................" it doesnt accept other people, or faiths unless they are the same."..................

Is probably one of the 'top ten' in my list of how to behave - In that one does Love and accept other people, and their faiths.:shout

 

[Aqualung]

Nice Gonazaga's a really nice school, and WA is really pretty (compared to chicago where i used to live). I hope you have fun up here.

I was born in the Chicago area, and I'm currently in a western suburb visiting my family. What a stange coincidence, eh?

But in answer to your post, i think what im really saying is that its not the people, its the religion, because the religion is set up in such a way where everybodys wrong except them. Thats my issue, it doesnt accept other people, or faiths unless they are the same.

Christianity is accepting. I maintain that it is the people who are doing a very poor job of following christianity. I, for example, accept people in thier religion, sins, etc., even though I may try to tell them every once in a while how I feel about what they are doing. I have very many non-christian friends, even, some of whom are already sexually active, drink, and do other things. The religion is accepting - the people aren't

 

[Katzpur]

The bottom line of what i was trying to say was that the way christianity is built, is that if your not one, you dont go to heaven...

I think you need to remember that there are over 30,000 different Christian denominations. Whereas some of them may teach that only Christians will go to Heaven, not all of them do. Mine, for instance, doesn't.

 

[BebopBoy]

I think you need to remember that there are over 30,000 different Christian denominations. Whereas some of them may teach that only Christians will go to Heaven, not all of them do. Mine, for instance, doesn't.

I understand that, but to make a generalization, MOST christian faiths believe this, not ALL. So maybe i should have renamed this thread "My problem with some sects of christianity".

 

[BebopBoy]

I was born in the Chicago area, and I'm currently in a western suburb visiting my family. What a stange coincidence, eh?

Where in chicago were you from/are now?? I used to live in Arlington Heights.

 

[DreamQuickBook]

I understand that, but to make a generalization, MOST christian faiths believe this, not ALL. So maybe i should have renamed this thread "My problem with some sects of christianity".

Don't worry dude. You don't have to go an point out every time you are speaking "in general". Unless you say ALL christians, rational people will assume you mean "in general". Only people who like to pick fights and nitpick will give you any trouble. Almost all Christian sects believe in heaven. So just say Christianity and we'll assume there are an exception or two.

 

[Katzpur]

Don't worry dude. You don't have to go an point out every time you are speaking "in general". Unless you say ALL christians, rational people will assume you mean "in general". Only people who like to pick fights and nitpick will give you any trouble. Almost all Christian sects believe in heaven. So just say Christianity and we'll assume there are an exception or two.

If you're implying that I was trying to pick a fight, you're wrong. I've been told by Catholics that they don't believe all non-Christians will go to Hell. If that's the case, then you have roughly half of the world's Christians believing as I do -- that Heaven's big enough for all good people. That doesn't strike me as nitpicking either.