My rough idea on creation

[Viraja]

It is said Lord Shiva informed Ma Parvati about creation in the holy Kedar and that Parvati slep halfway through, and she did not get this sacred secret revealed to her thus. Whereas 2 doves listened to this tale attentively and that they live eternally in these caves of Kedar.

I have thought about creation, and of karmas. How does a newly created soul ever have karmas?

I have deduced to myself that there are varying degrees of ego attached to the soul, even at the time of creation. So based on the type and intensity of ego, the quality of the soul is determined and a suitable amount and type of Maya is assigned to the soul. Based on the maya assigned, the soul gets karmas from the outset.

If you have good ideas on creation, kindly share. If anybody finds this post offensive, I'll stop here.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

I have thought about creation, and of karmas. How does a newly created soul ever have karmas?

When you use the word 'soul' what exactly do you mean by it? ... Do you mean the small portion of Brahman (the universal spirit) that is trapped inside the physical body?
... or by 'soul' do you mean the subtle body?

If its the former, then i'll say that IT is never created.
(Brahman / universal spirit / energy / consciousness) whatever you call it, is never created nor destroyed. It always exists.

But if according to you the 'soul' is the subtle body, (as many non-dualist advaitins believe), then yes the subtle body is created out of pancha mahabhutaas (if i'm not mistaken). Pancha mahabhutaas are fire, water, earth, air and ether.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Enjoy the discussion, you theists. My views as you know are different. (I won't start on them just now)

 

[Vinayaka]

Enjoy the discussion, you theists. My views as you know are different. (I won't start on them just now)

It is said Lord Shiva informed Ma Parvati about creation in the holy Kedar and that Parvati slep halfway through, and she did not get this sacred secret revealed to her thus. Whereas 2 doves listened to this tale attentively and that they live eternally in these caves of Kedar.

I have thought about creation, and of karmas. How does a newly created soul ever have karmas?

I have deduced to myself that there are varying degrees of ego attached to the soul, even at the time of creation. So based on the type and intensity of ego, the quality of the soul is determined and a suitable amount and type of Maya is assigned to the soul. Based on the maya assigned, the soul gets karmas from the outset.

If you have good ideas on creation, kindly share. If anybody finds this post offensive, I'll stop here.

I really have no idea, but here goes. On the first lifetime, it may not yet have any karma, because it hasn't acted, but as soon as it does act, the karmas are immediately there. Since it remains ignorant from anava, so any actions may not be that wise. So yes, more or less I agree with you.

Of course I'll be wrong, and leave it to the scholars. Just got back from temple here. Nice place that.

 

[Vinayaka]

I feel the same way brother.

Viraja is our sister. FYI

 

[`mud]

Butterflies and doves and stuf like that......where was `creation` before `God` was `created`.

Life's really simple.....spirits hover everywhere...they merge and re-merge again

from those couplings and re-merging...life is created through the merging of spirits

those spirits will eventually vanish into the land of sprits...and merge again.

Really pretty basic....we come..taste...share...leave...to become another spirit.

And no-one knows where Nirvana is ? or heaven for example ?

 

[Aupmanyav]

'mud, where were you all this time? Did not see you post for a long time.

 

[`mud]

Just running around keeping out of life's obstacles.

missing some organs and such,,, lot of stints...and uppers and ........

I peek in, every once in a while, there's no blackboard anymore...

but there's too much chalk for my liking.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

Viraja is our sister. FYI

Please check my post #2.
My reply was to Alienistic. Not Viraja

 

[Vinayaka]

Please check my post #2.
My reply was to Alienistic. Not Viraja

Oh sorry, I only saw Viraja's, then yours.

 

[Viraja]

When you use the word 'soul' what exactly do you mean by it? ... Do you mean the small portion of Brahman (the universal spirit) that is trapped inside the physical body?
... or by 'soul' do you mean the subtle body?

If its the former, then i'll say that IT is never created.
(Brahman / universal spirit / energy / consciousness) whatever you call it, is never created nor destroyed. It always exists.

But if according to you the 'soul' is the subtle body, (as many non-dualist advaitins believe), then yes the subtle body is created out of pancha mahabhutaas (if i'm not mistaken). Pancha mahabhutaas are fire, water, earth, air and ether.

Namaste Greg,

By soul I meant your former definition - that is, a portion of the infinite spirit. I subscribe to this view, as somewhere long ago I read about the mahat Intelligence, which forms the basis for individual ego.

 

[Viraja]

I really have no idea, but here goes. On the first lifetime, it may not yet have any karma, because it hasn't acted, but as soon as it does act, the karmas are immediately there. Since it remains ignorant from anava, so any actions may not be that wise. So yes, more or less I agree with you.

Of course I'll be wrong, and leave it to the scholars. Just got back from temple here. Nice place that.

I think karmas are created for a soul even at the time of creation.

I have thought about it hard. That is why I say, at the time of creation, the 'mahat Intelligence' (which is the dormant state of the atman before creation) is of a particular quality different from each other souls. Based on its quality, it gets a set of karmas to act upon, even at the time of birth. This is my view on the subject.

I welcome readers to share any and all their thoughts on the subject, it piques my curiosity.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think karmas are created for a soul even at the time of creation.

I have thought about it hard. That is why I say, at the time of creation, the 'mahat Intelligence' (which is the dormant state of the atman before creation) is of a particular quality different from each other souls. Based on its quality, it gets a set of karmas to act upon, even at the time of birth. This is my view on the subject.

I welcome readers to share any and all their thoughts on the subject, it piques my curiosity.

Could be. I certainly wouldn't 'know'.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

Namaste Greg,

By soul I meant your former definition - that is, a portion of the infinite spirit. I subscribe to this view, as somewhere long ago I read about the mahat Intelligence, which forms the basis for individual ego.

Hello Viraja,
And do you believe that this small portion of the infinite spirit travels/transmigrates along with the subtle body during reincarnation?
I asked this question to many but their answers vary. The dualists like the Hare Krishnas (ISKCONITES) believes that this small portion travels, whereas the non-dualists (advaitins) says IT doesn't travel.
What are your beliefs about this if i may ask?

If you have good ideas on creation, kindly share.

Well, i'm familiar with a creation theory. And this is going to be a long one. I hope you won't get bored. lol.
Before i was introduced to non-duality/advaita, i was a dualist (a follower of the hare krishna movement). According to the hare krishnas, Lord Krishna, the supreme godhead resides in his eternal abode Goloka.

1. From there Krishna first expands into Balarama.

2.Then from Balarama, the four divine beings called chaturvyuhas emanates. These four beings are Vasudeva, Sankarsana, Pradyumna, Aniruddha.

3.Then from Sankarsana, Lord Narayana emanates.

4.Then from Narayana, another four beings or chaturvyuhas emanates. They too have the same name... Vasudeva, Sankarsana, Pradyumna, Aniruddha. These are the second set of chaturvyuhas.

5. Anyway, from this second set of chaturvyuhas, (from the second Sankarsana), emanates Karanodakashayi Vishnu. This vishnu rests in the heavenly Karana ocean.

6. From this Karanodakashayi Vishnu, millions of egg-shaped universes come out from the body pores of this Vishnu with every exhalation, while he rests in the Karana ocean. That is how the universes come into existence. But at first they are empty shells with no living beings in these universes.

7. Then from Karanodakashayi Vishnu, another form of Vishnu emanates. His name is Garbhodakashayi vishnu. This Garbhodakashayi vishnu enters into each and every universe and creates the vedas and also from its navel sprouts a lotus. From that lotus, the four headed Brahma appears.

Don't confuse Brahma with Brahman. The former is an anthropomorphic being. The latter is infinite spirit/consciousness. I think you probably know this already :=)

8. Anyway, this four headed creator God Brahma then creates all the suns, moons, stars, planets, devas (angels), asuras (demons), humans, beasts, insects, birds, and aquatic creatures within each egg shaped universe. Brahma is pretty much like the Biblical God Yahweh who creates everything. But in (vaishnava) hinduism it is Vishnu who first creates the empty universes and then gives birth to Brahma. Then this Brahma creates the rest of the creation.

This is what i've learned from the ISKCONITES.
I wrote everything down on a peice of paper over the years since the knowledge of hinduism is so vast and one is bound to forget such deep knowledge. So i thought it would be better to write them down. This is just the creation theory of the hare krishnas. There are other creation theories as well, from a Shaivite or Shakta point of view mentioned in the scripture puranas. I ordered my set of puranas from Amazon and i have yet to go through them.

 

[Viraja]

Thanks for your reply, Greg. Pretty vast, that is. Nice to know the ISKCON version of creation, as I consider myself a follower of ISKCON.

Well, as a matter of fact, there is a creation version as in Mahat Intelligence -> individual soul -> ego added then, etc, etc. What I mean is how an individual soul gets birth. May be I will get the answers I'm seeking if I browse closely. Should I find anything interesting, I will add to this thread.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

I think i read about Mahat probably around 2018 and if i'm not mistaken, i think i came to know about it while i was going through the samkhya philosophy. But that was a long time ago. And i've forgotten almost everything about it.

Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't Mahat a kind of vast cosmic storehouse of universal intelligence?

 

[Aupmanyav]

This is what i've learned from the ISKCONITES.
I wrote everything down on a peice of paper over the years since the knowledge of Hinduism is so vast and one is bound to forget such deep knowledge. So i thought it would be better to write them down. This is just the creation theory of the Hare-Krishnas.

Well, the ISKCON people are right in their view. They are well-within the definition of Hinduism if they do not talk of figures from Abrahamic mythology. Although to me, the repeated creation of four and Vishnus is a little hard to swallow. But faith does not require any proof. My (unhesitating) homage to Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Prabhupada.

 

[Jainarayan]

As far as the ātma, remember what Sri Krishna told Arjuna (one of my favorite verses): Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be. BG 2.12. I think karma begins when the ātma takes birth in the material world. The Lord then goes on to say (2.13): Just as the embodied soul continuously passes from childhood to youth to old age, similarly, at the time of death, the soul passes into another body. The wise are not deluded by this. That is when the cycle continues.

 

[Viraja]

Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't Mahat a kind of vast cosmic storehouse of universal intelligence?

Spot on.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

The Lord then goes on to say (2.13): Just as the embodied soul continuously passes from childhood to youth to old age, similarly, at the time of death, the soul passes into another body. The wise are not deluded by this.

But in Gita chapter 2, verse 24, the Lord says that Atman (the small portion of the infinite spirit) is all-pervading, omnipresent and most importantly it is immovable.

If it is all-pervading & omnipresent then what is the need for it to travel from one location to another. Isn't it present everywhere.

Again, If it is immovable then how can it pass or travel from a dead body to a fresh physical body? IMO what really travels is the subtle/causal body, not the Atman.
Let me know what you think about it. :=)

Here's ch.2, verse 23 and 24

Weapons cannot pierce this (the eternal essence), fire cannot burn this, water cannot wet this, and wind cannot dry this. (v23)

This is uncleavable, incombustible, and cannot be wetted or dried. It is eternal, all-pervading, stable, immovable and everlasting. (v24)