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My support for hedonism

The Transcended Omniverse

Well-Known Member
As for supporting reasons, I can come up with one. For example, our minds are wired in such a way that when we have a good thought about something, then that sends a pleasure signal to the brain which then gives us the experience of pleasant emotions. But if our thoughts and such (our logical thinking part of our brains) is all that is needed to live a life that is good and worth living, then why is it that our minds are even wired in the first place to send these pleasant emotional signals? The answer to that would be because we need those pleasant emotions to define our actions, thoughts, and lives as being good and worth living to us. Otherwise, without our feelings of pleasure, then it is all nothing more than just the "thinking" experience and our thoughts, actions, and lives would hold no good value or worth to us.

Therefore, you are saying that it is my emotions that are deceiving me. However, it would actually be the logic part of your brain that is deceiving you instead. It deceives us in the sense of fooling us into thinking that our lives can still be good and worth living anyway without our feelings of pleasure. One more thing I would like to say here is that even if you do have no pleasure and only have bad feelings, then reducing those bad feelings still won't serve to make your life anything good and worth living. Instead, your bad feelings would subside (your bad value in life) and you would be instead left with a neutral value in life which would be you having no feelings of pleasure.
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
I know that I often like to edit my posts. Would you like to do so, or should I reply? (We can also modify your argument, later if you need to.)
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
OK, please let me know if this is a correct rendering of your logical argument:

  1. our minds are wired in such a way that when we have a good thought about something, then that sends a pleasure signal to the brain which then gives us the experience of pleasant emotions.
  2. Our minds are wired to send these pleasant emotional signals, because we need those pleasant emotions
  3. We need pleasant emotions because they define our actions, thoughts, and lives as being good and worth living to us.
  4. Our thoughts and such (our logical thinking part of our brains) are not all that is needed to live a life that is good and worth living,
  5. without our feelings of pleasure, it is all nothing more than just the "thinking" experience
Therefore,

Conclusion: Without feelings of pleasure, our thoughts, actions, and lives hold no good value or worth to us.
 

The Transcended Omniverse

Well-Known Member
That is correct. We may actually be able to define other things in our lives as being good without our feelings of pleasure, but without our feelings of pleasure, then they can't be anything truly good or worth living for us.
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
That is correct. We may actually be able to define other things in our lives as being good without our feelings of pleasure, but without our feelings of pleasure, then they can't be anything truly good or worth living for us.

Not sure I understand the difference between good and truly good. Please explain or give an example of something that is good but not truly so.
 

The Transcended Omniverse

Well-Known Member
What I mean by that is simply that if we have no feelings of pleasure, then nothing is good and worth living to us in life. But if we do have our feelings of pleasure, then they do have good value and worth to us.
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
What I mean by that is simply that if we have no feelings of pleasure, then nothing is good and worth living to us in life. But if we do have our feelings of pleasure, then they do have good value and worth to us.
Thank you. I instead of saying this,

We may actually be able to define other things in our lives as being good without our feelings of pleasure, but without our feelings of pleasure, then they can't be anything truly good or worth living for us.
it would be less misleading to say this:

We may [NOT] actually be able to define other things in our lives as being good without our feelings of pleasure, [because] without our feelings of pleasure, then they can't be anything truly good or worth living for us.
Is this closer to what you meant to convey?
 

The Transcended Omniverse

Well-Known Member
We could say they would be good without our feelings of pleasure, but they really wouldn't. So it would be a lie. Actually, I think it might work out like this. Other things could have the good value and worth without our feelings of pleasure. But they would have no good value or worth to us. We could say that it is good for a plant to be watered and stay healthy. But that version of good is just for the plant. Our version of good is defined through having an uplifting and optimistic tone (mood) in our lives. It is us finding reason to live and finding a sense of good value and worth in our lives. That version of good can only be defined through our feelings of pleasure as I've said before. Living for other good things without our version of good would still be nothing of good value or worth to us because it all goes back to our own brains. Our own brains are what define our lives and sense of good value and worth in life since it is our own brains that make us alive in the first place. We cannot be in the minds of others and experience their feelings of pleasure (their sense of good value and worth). So this is the reason why you living to bring others feelings of pleasure without your feelings of pleasure cannot make your life good or worth living.

Now I am going to bring up one more important thing here. It is a counterargument that you might come up with against me. I am going to present it in the form of a response and my reply to it:

Response: So if you feel depressed about having harmed someone you love, then are you saying here that this makes this person a bad person in your life? Because that is what you are saying here since it is apparently only our unpleasant feelings that define our lives as bad. So can you see here how that just makes no sense?

My Reply: The person you loved is not who is making you feel bad. It is just the idea of having harmed him/her. So the idea of having harmed him/her has bad value to you since your feeling of depression is directly from that very message of having harmed him/her. However, all other messages and things in your life during your moment of depression would only hold neutral value to you since there was neither feelings of pleasure nor feelings of suffering associated with those other messages. For example, the idea that you love this person neither gave you feelings of pleasure nor suffering. You could only feel suffering (depression) from the message of having harmed him/her. Therefore, this is the reason why that message of having harmed him/her has bad value while everything else in life to you and all other messages to you only have neutral value since you could not derive any feelings of pleasure from them due to your moment of depression.
 
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Spockrates

Wonderer.
I think I understand what you meant by that statement, now. Thank you, and good morning. :)

But I'm not sure I understand premise (3):

We need pleasant emotions because they define our actions, thoughts and lives as being good and worth living to us.​

Please tell me what definition of the word define you have in mind.

de·fine
transitive verb

1a :to determine or identify the essential qualities or meaning of <whatever defines us as human>

1b :to discover and set forth the meaning of (as a word)

1c :to create on a computer <define a window><define a procedure>

2a :to fix or mark the limits of :demarcate<rigidly defined property lines>

2b :to make distinct, clear, or detailed especially in outline <the issues aren't too well defined>

3:characterize, distinguish <you defineyourself by the choices you make — Denison University Bulletin>

Define | Definition of define by Merriam-Webster

 

The Transcended Omniverse

Well-Known Member
What I mean is what makes our lives good and worth living. So I think it would have to be 1a.

Now I am also going to continue on here with something else important for you to respond to here as well. All good messages have an uplifting and optimistic tone, all bad messages have the opposite tone (such as somber and depressing which would be negative tones), while neutral messages have neutral tones. This is something that is always true. If you were to have an uplifting and optimistic tone towards something bad in your life such as: "Excellent, I have something bad in my life which is cancer," then this would be false. You are not having that tone towards that message. Instead, it is towards a different message (a good message). Those other good messages could be you inspiring others to move on with their lives who also have cancer. Or maybe something is bad in your life and you thought it was a good thing to have cancer in order to give yourself the excuse to end your life in order to escape from that said bad thing in your life. But the bad things in your life were never good in of themselves and they never had an uplifting and optimistic tone towards them. It was only the good messages from those bad things that had this tone.

So for people who have uplifting and optimistic tones towards pain and suffering in their lives, it is only towards the good things that can come from this suffering to them. Otherwise, if there was nothing good that could come from this suffering for these people, then they would not have this tone towards their suffering. Our moods (emotions) are the only things that dictate our tones in life. If you feel unpleasant emotions, then you are going to have a negative tone and if you feel pleasant emotions, then you are going to have a positive tone. But if you feel neither pleasant nor unpleasant emotions, then you are going to have a neutral tone. But if you had a positive tone while feeling nothing but depression, then this would make no sense and it would be no different than having a negative tone while feeling intense pleasure (excitement). It is our pleasant and unpleasant feelings that define the good and bad value in our lives and it is also the good and bad value messages (thoughts) that give us good and bad feelings. They are two sides of the same coin and define one another in our personal lives. One cannot exist without the other.

Therefore, for you to have a negative tone towards something bad in your life while you are feeling nothing but pleasure (excitement), then this cannot be and makes no sense. That bad thing in your life would actually have a neutral tone towards it since you are neither feeling pleasure nor suffering associated with that bad thing. You are only feeling pleasure (excitement) towards something good in your life at the moment. So if you were to have a negative tone while feeling nothing but pleasure, then it would be forced (faked) and not genuine. If you were to achieve a positive tone during your depression, then it would only be because there was a moment during your depression in which you were able to experience feelings of pleasure. Same holds true for feeling excited in that there would be a moment in which you felt suffering if you were to have a negative tone.

But moods in which you feel neither pleasure nor suffering should always have neutral tones. If you were to choose to have a negative tone or a positive tone during these moods, then you are only faking (forcing) this tone and it is not a genuine tone. Same thing applies if you had a negative tone while feeling nothing but pleasure or having a positive tone while feeling nothing but suffering. Therefore, since it is only our moods (feelings of pleasure, feeling of suffering, or neither) that dictate the perceived good value, bad value, and neutral value in our lives, then this would mean that only our feelings of pleasure make our lives good and worth living, feelings of suffering make our lives bad and not worth living, while feeling neither pleasure nor suffering give neutral value to our lives and does not make our lives worth living. So if a person who feels neither pleasure nor suffering chooses to make the best of this life, help others, and live for their family, then they are only forcing themselves to do so because they think it is the right thing to do. But here again, it is not a genuine good value in this person's life at all without his/her feelings of pleasure and they have no reason to live. They are only fooling themselves and just forcing themselves to live.

They are fooling themselves into thinking there are good things and good messages he/she can live by when, in fact, there is nothing actually being perceived as good and worth living for in this person's life without his/her feelings of pleasure. He/she would just be fooling him/herself through thoughts and such alone. Again, it is all nothing more than just thoughts of good value and worth in this person's life and not the actual sense of good value and worth in this person's life. But those thoughts and such never had any good value or worth to begin with without our feelings of pleasure. Only our feelings of pleasure would define those thoughts and our lives as having good value and worth to us.

One last thing I would like to say here is that people who take heroin and other drugs and get a pleasure high off of it, thoughts of good value are not what is causing them to get a pleasure high. Instead, it is the heroin itself that gives them the pleasure highs. Going back to what I said before in that good and bad value messages and our feelings are two sides of the same coin and cannot exist without the other, you might be asking me here how can it be that a heroin/drug addict can get a pleasure high then if he/she is not having any good value messages (thoughts). The answer to that would be that the pleasure high itself defines the good value and worth of this drug/heroin addict's life. This pleasure high gives a good value message (perception) to this drug/heroin addict's life. The heroin/drug addict might then use the logical thinking part of his/her brain and say to him/herself while getting the pleasure high: "No, this is not good at all. I could damage myself in the long term," but that does not define any bad value in his/her life during his/her moment of pleasure high. Our logical part of our brains that makes such decisions is nothing more than an evolved survival mechanism to help us avoid certain situations and to solve problems. It does not dictate the good and bad value of our lives. Therefore, our lives cannot be good or bad through just our thinking alone and through everything else in life without our feelings of pleasure or suffering.

Here again, other things in life can have the good and bad value without our feelings of pleasure or suffering. But it would only be those things that have the good and bad value. They cannot have any good or bad value to us without our feelings of pleasure or suffering since our own personal good and bad value is defined through our feelings of pleasure and suffering. The version of good and bad in which our lives are either good and worth living to us or bad and not worth living to us, this version of good and bad value can only be defined through our feelings of pleasure and suffering. If someone else is able to experience pleasure while you are not, then that other person has the good value and worth in his/her life. However, that person cannot be of any good value or worth to you without your feelings of pleasure. Same thing if the other person felt suffering. They would have the bad value, but they would still be of good value to you if you can derive pleasure from them. I will bring up my example with the plant again. It is good to keep a plant healthy and alive. But that version of good is just for the plant and not for us since only our feelings of pleasure define the good value and worth in our lives. Even our own selves and our own personalities can't be anything of good value or worth to us without our feelings of pleasure to derive from that.

The only thing that makes a person great is their level of pleasure and nothing else. Your level of pleasure dictates the level of good value and worth you have for yourself in life. If you have more pleasure than someone else, then that makes you a better person than him/her. Therefore, people who never struggle with depression or anhedonia are the better people than those who do have much suffering and much absence of pleasure in their lives. Moments where you have the greater amount of pleasure are the moments where you are the better person. Moments where you have less pleasure or an absence of pleasure are the moments where you are the person of less good value or no good value.
 
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Spockrates

Wonderer.
What I mean is what makes our lives good and worth living. So I think it would have to be 1a.

Very good! We shall use (1a) as the definition of defines:

1a. to determine or identify the essential qualities or meaning of <whatever defines us as human>
Our logical argument is then clarified as this:

  1. our minds are wired in such a way that when we have a good thought about something, then that sends a pleasure signal to the brain which then gives us the experience of pleasant emotions.
  2. Our minds are wired to send these pleasant emotional signals, because we need those pleasant emotions
  3. We need pleasant emotions because they define our actions, thoughts, and lives as being good and worth living to us.
  4. These pleasant emotions define by determining the essential meaning of life.
  5. Our thoughts and such (our logical thinking part of our brains) are not all that is needed to live a life that is good and worth living,
  6. without our feelings of pleasure, it is all nothing more than just the "thinking" experience
Is (4) acceptable to you? If so, I'll respond to the logical argument as it exists at the moment. (Keep in mind that nothing we say is set in stone, here. We are committed to the truth, not to any defense of it. If it looks like our defensive wall will fall, there is no reason why we should not let it crumble. We can always learn from any mistakes made in its construction and build another. And when I say we, I mean you and me. This is not a fight to the death, nor a contest of intellectual strength. It's two people working the together for a common good cause--determining the truth. While my hope is that you are wrong and a life absent of joy is worth living, my commitment is to the truth, no matter how painful its wisdom might be. Are you with me? If so, let me know: What do you think of the revised argument so far?
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
Yes, #4 is what I agree with. I am looking forward to what conclusion will be reached here.
Glad to hear you are looking forward, albeit with a logical expectation of some good outcome rather than an emotional one.

:D

So these are the premises to which I'll now respond:

3. We need pleasant emotions because they define our actions, thoughts, and lives as being good and worth living to us.

4. These pleasant emotions define by determining the essential meaning of life.
I guess my question is, "What determines the meaning of one's thoughts, words or deeds?" But you do not need to answer, because you already did.

Remember? I gave an example of a parent feeling negative emotions about getting her child vaccinated, but feeling good about withholding vaccinations. You and I agreed that the meaning of such action--whether it was meaningful or meaningless--was determined by logic and sound reason, but NOT by one's feelings. So then, it appears the revised premises (3a) and (4a) lead us to a different conclusion:

1. our minds are wired in such a way that when we have a good thought about something, then that sends a pleasure signal to the brain which then gives us the experience of pleasant emotions.

2. Our minds are wired to send these pleasant emotional signals, because we need those pleasant emotions.

3a. We [do not] need pleasant emotions because [logic, not emotions] define our actions, thoughts, and lives as being [meaningful] to us.

4a. These pleasant emotions [do not] define by determining the essential meaning of life.

5a. Our thoughts and such (our logical thinking part of our brains) [are] all that is needed to live a life that is [meaningful].

6. without our feelings of pleasure, it is all nothing more than just the "thinking" experience

7. [However, logic is all we need to live a meaningful life apart from pleasant emotions.]

8. [Everyone seeks a life that is meaningful.]

Therefore,

A2. A life devoid of pleasant emotion but having logic in abundance is a meaningful life that is worth living!​
 
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The Transcended Omniverse

Well-Known Member
But we as human beings solely rely on our sense of good value and worth in our lives. This sense can only be defined through our feelings of pleasure. We do not just rely on our thoughts of good meanings and such in our lives. To do so would only be fooling yourself.
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
But we as human beings solely rely on our sense of good value and worth in our lives. This sense can only be defined through our feelings of pleasure. We do not just rely on our thoughts of good meanings and such in our lives. To do so would only be fooling yourself.

Yes, but everyone seeks the meaning of life and wants a life that is meaningful. Is that which everyone wants valuable and worth having?
 

The Transcended Omniverse

Well-Known Member
Many people would want that even without their feelings of pleasure. But here again, they would only be fooling themselves into doing that. I will go back to my example again with the good thought and the pleasure signal being sent to the brain. Why is it that our brains are wired to send pleasure signals and give us the experience of pleasure if all that is need to live a good life is through our thoughts and such alone? It would be because we solely rely on our feelings of pleasure to give us a sense of good value and worth in our lives. Without that sense which can only be given to us through our feelings of pleasure, then our lives are not good and worth living to us and we would only be fooling ourselves into thinking it is.
 
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