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My support for hedonism

The Transcended Omniverse

Well-Known Member
Years of hedonistic bliss. But again, even that idea (thought) would be nothing good to him if he derived no feelings of pleasure from it. But there would be no moral good or bad to determine whether he should go through with that thought or not.
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
Years of hedonistic bliss. But again, even that idea (thought) would be nothing good to him if he derived no feelings of pleasure from it. But there would be no moral good or bad to determine whether he should go through with that thought or not.

With that, I'm OK, just wanted to hear you say the lovely lady Logic is at times a better one to give your heart to than her sometimes insane sister Emotion.

:)
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
Please tell me, then: Who is more reliable when it comes to telling you the truth about achieving a life of hedonistic bliss? Freaky Feelings, or lovely Logic?
 

The Transcended Omniverse

Well-Known Member
But that wouldn't be better (more good). We would only add up all the amount of pleasure lived on during those years of hedonistic bliss and say that is the better life. So we would just say that life would be better. But we would not say that the logical decision itself was the better choice. We would only say that the feelings of pleasure derived from your thoughts and logic makes them good to us. But even though if we went through with the decision of living on for that blissful life and that decision would be good to us if we felt pleasure from it, there is still no moral good or bad telling us what we should and should not do. There is no moral good or bad outside of our feeling version of good and bad that dictates what we should and should not do in life. Therefore, even though making that decision to live on for that blissful life would be a good decision to us, there is no moral good and bad outside of that which determines whether we should fully go through with that decision or not.
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
But that wouldn't be better (more good). We would only add up all the amount of pleasure lived on during those years of hedonistic bliss and say that is the better life. So we would just say that life would be better. But we would not say that the logical decision itself was the better choice.

OK. Please explain why jumping to your death is the better choice, instead.
 

The Transcended Omniverse

Well-Known Member
That choice would only be good to us if we felt pleasure from it. That is it. Our feelings of pleasure and suffering are the only things that determines what is good or bad to us in life.
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
That choice would only be good to us if we felt pleasure from it. That is it. Our feelings of pleasure and suffering are the only things that determines what is good or bad to us in life.

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Ah, but you don't feel pleasure from it, or is the truth that you do, but just not right away?

Think about it. We are talking about pleasure either way: By jumping you get instant gratification. By not jumping, you get delayed gratification. In this example, the end result for Hedonist Man is greater cumulative pleasure in his life if he chooses to experience some pain now to get a whole lot of pleasure later.

So what is a better and more valuable life worth living? One where the liver always seeks immediate gratification but ends up experiencing more pain than pleasure over a lifetime? Or one where the liver often seeks delayed gratification, the end result being a life of far more cumulative pleasure and much less pain?
 
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The Transcended Omniverse

Well-Known Member
But even if you do get pleasure from the idea of jumping off which would make that idea good to you, that does not mean we should or should not jump off. It just simply means it was a good idea to us because we derived feelings of pleasure from it and nothing else.

A life of more pleasure than pain would be the better life. But here again, that thought can only be good or bad to us if we felt pleasure or suffering from it. There is nothing that says whether we should or should not go through with living that life of more pleasure or not. What we should or should not do is defined as "morality." But since morality does not exist since there is no other good or bad in life and that it is only our feelings of pleasure and suffering that make our lives good or bad, then you can do anything you want.

But going back to my example with me saying that you should find no reason to live if you had no feelings of pleasure and that you knew for a fact that only our feelings of pleasure make our lives good and worth living, you could delude (fool) yourself anyway into thinking your life is good and worth living even though it is not. You could still fool yourself anyway through your thoughts and such alone even though it is only natural for the brain to work in such a way that it would find no reason to live if there was nothing good to you in your life.
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
But even if you do get pleasure from the idea of jumping off which would make that idea good to you, that does not mean we should or should not jump off. It just simply means it was a good idea to us because we derived feelings of pleasure from it and nothing else.

It's not the idea that is more pleasurable. It's the result. The choice to choose delayed gratification is itself painful. But the end result is greater, more valuable and more worthy pleasure. No pain, no gain. True?
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
Yes, but why think only of the moment? Consider a body builder. He might not enjoy the endless hours of exertion to build up his physique. But he does it to obtain a later and greater joy of having a body that will attract the opposite sex, having the strength to prevail in athletics, having bragging rights, etc. In his case, he chooses delayed gratification over the immediate gratification of drinking beer and getting fat on his couch watching others stronger than himself compete. He chooses the greater pleasure over the lesser one.
 

The Transcended Omniverse

Well-Known Member
Now you would be referring to morality in saying that the body builder should continue to work out. Morality does not exist which means there is no should or should not as I've said before since that moral version of good and bad does not exist and it is only our feelings of pleasure and suffering that define our lives as good or bad. So what you would be presenting to me here would be nothing more than just simply the idea of the bodybuilder gaining something afterwards. Or, in this case, a life of greater pleasure in my situation. Even though I could recognize that life of pleasure as the greater life, the fact is that my conscious is only here in the moment. Therefore, it is only my feelings of pleasure and suffering here in the moment that define ideas, thoughts, and my life as being good or bad to me.
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
...
Now you would be referring to morality in saying that the body builder should continue to work out.

Did I say the body builder should? Or did I merely make an observation that the body builder does? By choosing delayed gratification, the pleasure the body builder desires is obtained. If he never chooses the pain, he never achieves the greater pleasure, but he does have the lesser pleasure of being fat--albeit in the end less happy--for endless hours on his comfy couch.

How is this a moral judgement, since I'm not saying one is better than the other? Body builders are of the opinion that one results in greater pleasure than the other. Otherwise, why would they lift weights at all?

As for me, I'm no body builder. I don't think lifting weights is moral or immoral. It just is.
 
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The Transcended Omniverse

Well-Known Member
I apologize. I have mistaken your word "does" for the moral "should." As for why they would lift weights to obtain the greater pleasure, it is just simply because we have the logical thinking part of our brains which aids our survival and makes decisions. But like I said before, that area of the brain does not define our lives as being good and worth living. Only our feelings of pleasure defines our lives as being good and worth living.
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
I apologize. I have mistaken your word "does" for the moral "should." As for why they would lift weights to obtain the greater pleasure, it is just simply because we have the logical thinking part of our brains which aids our survival and makes decisions. But like I said before, that area of the brain does not define our lives as being good and worth living. Only our feelings of pleasure defines our lives as being good and worth living.

No problem. :)

Why can't one area of our brains (logic) help the other area of our brains (feelings) obtain its goal? Why can't logic help us achieve more pleasant feelings later by choosing to suffer pain now? Is it impossible for delayed gratification to define our lives as being good and worth living?
 
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The Transcended Omniverse

Well-Known Member
If we had no feelings of pleasure (such as chronic anhedonia), then we could very well choose to live on anyway for a future life of pleasure using our logic area of our brains. But I am just letting you know here that there would be no good value or worth whatsoever in your life during your moment of anhedonia. The truth is that you would have no reason to live since it is only us having good value and worth in our lives that gives us reason and the incentive to live. That good value can only come from our feelings of pleasure. Therefore, you would only be fooling yourself into living for that future life of pleasure since there would be no reason to live during your moment of anhedonia.
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
..
If we had no feelings of pleasure (such as chronic anhedonia), then we could very well choose to live on anyway for a future life of pleasure using our logic area of our brains. But I am just letting you know here that there would be no good value or worth whatsoever in your life during your moment of anhedonia.

Agreed. If all that gives you pleasure is good feelings, then the experience would be pain. A later gain, if such were to come, might make the pain worthwhile.

The truth is that you would have no reason to live since it is only us having good value and worth in our lives that gives us reason and the incentive to live. That good value can only come from our feelings of pleasure. Therefore, you would only be fooling yourself into living for that future life of pleasure since there would be no reason to live during your moment of anhedonia.

If the body builder has no reason to lift weights, then why does he lift weights? If the intoxicated man has no reason to not jump, then why does he not jump?
 

The Transcended Omniverse

Well-Known Member
First off, the pain can't be anything of good value and worth to us since feelings of suffering are what define our lives as bad.

Second, the only reason why the bodybuilder and why the man do so anyway, that would be because the logic area of our brains is just used for survival, to make decisions, and problem solving. So that is the reason why they are doing so. But like I said before, that logic area of our brains does not define our lives as good and worth living without our feelings of pleasure. The logic area of our brains just simply fools us into thinking we have reason to live if we had a life of no feelings of pleasure.

The thing is, the reasons that our logic areas of our brains give us to live without our feelings of pleasure, those are not genuine reasons at all. All expressions and actions would not be genuine. They would be forced (faked) because it is only our emotions (our feelings of pleasure and suffering) that make our expressions and actions genuine as I've said before. If, for example, you choose to do something in life while feeling depressed, then that said act would be forced (faked) and you would be fooling yourself here into thinking you have reason to live during that moment of depression.
 
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Spockrates

Wonderer.
First off, the pain can't be anything of good value and worth to us since feelings of suffering are what define our lives as bad.

If suffering is bad, why does anyone who has a choice between immediate and delayed gratification choose delayed gratification? Take yourself, for example. Have you ever completed a homework assignment or studied for a test? If it was not for the delayed pleasure of getting higher grades, then why did you do it?

Second, the only reason why the bodybuilder and why the man do so anyway, that would be because the logic area of our brains is just used for survival, to make decisions, and problem solving. So that is the reason why they are doing so. But like I said before, that logic area of our brains does not define our lives as good and worth living without our feelings of pleasure. The logic area of our brains just simply fools us into thinking we have reason to live if we had a life of no feelings of pleasure.

Having a strong body that attracts the opposite sex and makes one successful in athletics is not pleasurable to a bodybuilder?

The thing is, the reasons that our logic areas of our brains give us to live without our feelings of pleasure, those are not genuine reasons at all.

Logical reasons are never genuine reasons?

All expressions and actions would not be genuine. They would be forced (faked) because it is only our emotions (our feelings of pleasure and suffering) that make our expressions and actions genuine as I've said before. If, for example, you choose to do something in life while feeling depressed, then that said act would be forced (faked) and you would be fooling yourself here into thinking you have reason to live during that moment of depression.

How about a soldier on a battlefield who is afraid to the point that she feels like vomiting yet continues to fight despite her fear? Are her actions not genuinely brave? Isn't bravery not a lack of fear but facing one's fear, rather than letting it paralyze her?
 
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The Transcended Omniverse

Well-Known Member
As for your first statement about suffering, it's all just a matter of our logic brain which is used for survival and problem solving as I've said before. The logic area of our brain without our feelings of pleasure just allows us to live and make decisions/solve problems anyway because I think it was just evolved ("programmed") that way. It would be no different than how a virus or a cell can still live even though it has no feelings/emotions of pleasure or suffering. But here again, our thinking without our feelings of pleasure is not a genuine reason to live and it does not make our lives good and worth living at all without our feelings of pleasure and we are only fooling ourselves into thinking our lives can be good and worth living to us anyway without our feelings of pleasure.

So people who find reason to live without their feelings of pleasure are living like nothing more than a conscious version of a virus or a cell. It is only the higher elite class evolved human beings who can easily see past this "trick" that our logical minds are playing on us into making us think that our lives are still good and worth living without our feelings of pleasure. People who still think they can live a life of good value and worth to them without their feelings of pleasure, these are the lower class and less evolved human beings. They are less evolved like that of a living virus or a cell as I've said before. Only the higher class human beings can see the true motive (incentive) of our very lives that makes our lives good and worth living which would be our feelings of pleasure.

As for your 2nd statement, that idea could very well be pleasurable and would make that a good idea to the bodybuilder if he derived feelings of pleasure from that idea. But again, it's just his feelings of pleasure here in the moment that would define his life as being good and worth living and not the greater amount of pleasure he would get later on in life. This is because our conscious can only be here in the moment as I've said before. He might have the better life later on. But he is only here in the moment which means that only his feelings of pleasure here in the moment define his life as being good and worth living right now.

As for your 3rd statement, our logical reasons are never genuine reasons. Only our feelings of pleasure make our lives genuinely good and worth living.

As for your 4th statement, fear is a response to run away. Therefore, this soldier's act to fight was forced (faked) and not genuine. She was having the flight response. Therefore, if she has chosen to run away, then that would be a genuine act. Only her having the fight (anger) response would make her act of fighting genuine. Go back and read my new argument that I made earlier since it explains more on this. Actually, since feelings of compassion might motivate us to fight, then perhaps her act was something genuine. But if she felt no emotions or felt nothing but depression, then that said act would not be genuinely expressed. Feelings of depression (hopelessness) demotivate us while feeling neither pleasure nor suffering neither motivates us or demotivates us.

Finally, for our personal lives, good and bad are scientific. They are not moral value judgments. What we morally define as good or bad to us in our lives would not be referred to as being good or bad to us. The good and bad to us in our personal lives can only be our experiences of pleasant feelings/emotions and unpleasant feelings/emotions. So our good and bad are the functions of our brains that give us pleasant feelings/emotions and unpleasant feelings/emotions. They can't be any other function of our brains since all our other brain functions are different. We might be able to experience feelings/emotions of pleasure and suffering from those other functions. But that can only be if we have our actual feelings/emotions of pleasure and suffering to do so. Our experience of pleasant feelings/emotions is pure goodness while our experience of unpleasant feelings/emotions is pure badness. Our pleasant feelings/emotions are the only things that breathe pure goodness into us and our lives while our unpleasant feelings/emotions are the only things that breathe pure badness into us and our lives.

Some say that the mind is a separate entity from the brain just like how movement is a separate entity from the Earth. The Earth and our brains are made up of atoms and particles. But there is no atom/particle of movement or consciousness. That all our mental experiences are a separate entity from the brain. Therefore, if that is the case, then good would be defined as our mental experience of pleasant feelings/emotions while bad would be defined as our mental experience of unpleasant feelings/emotions.

As a matter of fact, I think it would be safe to say that the moral version of good and bad does not exist at all and nor does any other version of good and bad exist either. For example, instead of saying something such as that you are a good cook, you would instead say that you are a skilled cook. Instead of saying that a plant has a good amount of water, we would instead say that the plant has a sufficient amount of water. This would be because good and bad can only be defined through our positive and negative tones as I've said before. Since only our pleasant or unpleasant moods genuinely define our positive and negative tones, then this would mean that the pleasant and unpleasant moods themselves would be what we would instead refer to as good (pleasant) and bad (unpleasant). Only if we derive feelings of pleasure from something would that then make that said thing good to us and only if we derive feelings of suffering from something would it make that said thing bad to us.

If you say something such as that a plant as a sufficient amount of water or that someone is a skilled cook in an uplifting and optimistic tone of voice without your feelings of pleasure, then that is implying a good value judgment to that. As I said before, only our feelings of pleasure genuinely define our positive tones. So while you are having no feelings of pleasure, then that version of "sufficient" and "skilled" would make no sense to have that positive tone towards them. It would make no sense to attribute that good value judgment to them when the fact is that only our feelings of pleasure define the good value and worth of us and our lives.

If we have a good thought or a bad thought which would send a pleasure signal or a signal to the brain that would give us feelings of suffering, then those thoughts would not be good or bad thoughts. They would just simply be referred to as thoughts of getting what we want in life or thoughts of not getting what we want in life. Once the feelings of pleasure and suffering are triggered, that is when those said thoughts become good or bad to us. Since I think we can feel pleasure or suffering from our thoughts and other conscious functions alone only providing that we have our feelings of pleasure and suffering to do so, then this is the reason why those thoughts would be said to be either good or bad to us the moment we feel pleasure or suffering from them.
 
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