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My thoughts on religion.

nxxb

New Member
I AM NOT TRYING TO START A FIGHT I AM SIMPLY TRYING TO EXPRESS MY VIEW AND UNDERSTAND YOUR VIEW. SO PLEASE READ AND UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK BUT AN ASSESSMENT MADE BY ME. THANK YOU.

Religion seems to have a significant influence on how the world is and how it is run. I would like to start by saying I'm not trying to start an argument but more of a discussion on what effect all religions have on this world collectively. I see religion as a detriment to societal growth because of the way it seems to back violent events and stunt the growth of ground breaking technology. For example, we can achieve a significantly greater life expectancy if we were able to study the human embryo. However that would be "playing god" and god wouldn't condone it. Well if god doesn't like it he should intervene like he did with the flooding of the Earth with Noah and parting of the Red Sea for Moses, also raining down fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorra. Fortunately he hasn't because Switzerland has been conducting embryonic studies since 2004. According to creationist it is wrong and immoral to advance medical technologies in the field of genetics; however the bible doesn't say anything about science. Don't tell me it's implied because I have read through many passages and nothing implies that evil and sin correlates with science. Why? Well because science did not appear until 1,800 years after the events in the bible took place.

Now moving on to the violence topic. For some reason religion seems to support acts of violence by defending it with one of two excuses. The first is "god's will." why would a loving and merciful god condone acts of atrocity on his own creation? As a matter of fact why would he order such a thing? If you don't know what I am talking about I am referring to the crusades and the inquisitions. In my experience people seem to have a hostile nature towards each other. When religion is the topic, the hostility is amplified if the parties involved do not see eye to eye. Now I'm not saying every person gets violent when discussing religion but most of the time (about 9/10 times in my experience) people become hostile. And why would someone crash planes into buildings. Because Allah said to? You're kidding me right? The second excuse of course is defense. We need to defend ourselves form this inherit evil among us. People say satan influences us to sin which causes evil deeds. Well why would god let satan influence someone to do something wrong or sinful? A better question would be why would god let that person be influenced to the point where they are not able to receive salvation? In turn doesn't that defeat, and contradict, the point of Jesus dying on the cross?

Why is slim chance the only alternative to design? I have done some extensive research on how the Earth and everything that inhabits it came into existence and I have to say the "chance" is significantly greater than you would assume. If you think about how expansive the universe is (let alone the high probability that we inhabit a multiverse) the creation of life had to happen somewhere. Now in between the meteor hitting Earth 4.5 billion years ago to knock it at a 23.5° angle on its axis, in which created the seasons. Also with the sun pumping heat and energy into Earth along with Earth being able to sustain flowing liquid water and enough sufficient elements and chemicals here I think it’s more believable that life transitioned from energy into life through genetic mutations and chemical reactions rather than a dude in the sky.

Now I know that the common argument is that you don't have religion, you have a belief. However, religion by definition is: a set of beliefs concerning the cause of the Universe. So therefore if you believe in a god or in anything besides facts and evidence it is a religion. People mistake that for what religion has become today, a cult following. People of today mistake cult for religion and religion for belief and belief with knowledge based on fact and evidence. A cult by definition is: a particular system of religious worship, with reference to its rights and ceremonies. So going to church means you are in a cult not religion and just believing in god make you religious. While, knowing that certain science laws are true based on evidence is not belief.

So I guess I am left with the only question I can actually articulate into words. Why? Why must we segregate each other and ourselves into these groups were we receive no benefit here on this Earth? We spend this whole life trying to get into the next life, when we cannot know 100% fact that there is another. If you say you know 100% that there is another life then you have no faith in your belief. Just the same as if you have faith you cannot know 100%. To prove that here is the definition of faith: Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. So with that being said you cannot have both so please tell me why? Why do we, as humans, feel the need to look forward into another life rather than live ours? Also as an extension, why rely on a book written 2,000 years in the past rather than look into advancing 2,000 years into the future?
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
I AM NOT TRYING TO START A FIGHT I AM SIMPLY TRYING TO EXPRESS MY VIEW AND UNDERSTAND YOUR VIEW. SO PLEASE READ AND UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK BUT AN ASSESSMENT MADE BY ME. THANK YOU.

Religion seems to have a significant influence on how the world is and how it is run. I would like to start by saying I'm not trying to start an argument but more of a discussion on what effect all religions have on this world collectively. I see religion as a detriment to societal growth because of the way it seems to back violent events and stunt the growth of ground breaking technology. For example, we can achieve a significantly greater life expectancy if we were able to study the human embryo. However that would be "playing god" and god wouldn't condone it. Well if god doesn't like it he should intervene like he did with the flooding of the Earth with Noah and parting of the Red Sea for Moses, also raining down fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorra. Fortunately he hasn't because Switzerland has been conducting embryonic studies since 2004. According to creationist it is wrong and immoral to advance medical technologies in the field of genetics; however the bible doesn't say anything about science. Don't tell me it's implied because I have read through many passages and nothing implies that evil and sin correlates with science. Why? Well because science did not appear until 1,800 years after the events in the bible took place.

Wrong. The timeline of the Bible covers a period of about 1500 years; other ancient civilizations had been studying the world around them with science in that time.

Now moving on to the violence topic. For some reason religion seems to support acts of violence by defending it with one of two excuses. The first is "god's will." why would a loving and merciful god condone acts of atrocity on his own creation? As a matter of fact why would he order such a thing? If you don't know what I am talking about I am referring to the crusades and the inquisitions. In my experience people seem to have a hostile nature towards each other. When religion is the topic, the hostility is amplified if the parties involved do not see eye to eye. Now I'm not saying every person gets violent when discussing religion but most of the time (about 9/10 times in my experience) people become hostile. And why would someone crash planes into buildings. Because Allah said to? You're kidding me right? The second excuse of course is defense. We need to defend ourselves form this inherit evil among us. People say satan influences us to sin which causes evil deeds. Well why would god let satan influence someone to do something wrong or sinful? A better question would be why would god let that person be influenced to the point where they are not able to receive salvation? In turn doesn't that defeat, and contradict, the point of Jesus dying on the cross?

Humans fear, and therefore hate, anything we don't understand. Many wars and conflicts arose from simple misunderstandings.

We also get very defensive when someone comes and tells us that things aren't the way we've seen them to be for many years, often from childhood. This doesn't just apply to religion. A friend of mine hates, and last I checked was unwilling to accept, the fact that paleontologists has recently (well... not so recently anymore, I guess) stated that the tyrannosaurus may have been a scavenger instead of a hunter. I'd like to point out that this friend of mine is an atheist.

Why is slim chance the only alternative to design? I have done some extensive research on how the Earth and everything that inhabits it came into existence and I have to say the "chance" is significantly greater than you would assume. If you think about how expansive the universe is (let alone the high probability that we inhabit a multiverse) the creation of life had to happen somewhere. Now in between the meteor hitting Earth 4.5 billion years ago to knock it at a 23.5° angle on its axis, in which created the seasons. Also with the sun pumping heat and energy into Earth along with Earth being able to sustain flowing liquid water and enough sufficient elements and chemicals here I think it’s more believable that life transitioned from energy into life through genetic mutations and chemical reactions rather than a dude in the sky.

With a few exceptions, this is probably the best argument I've seen against the "extremely low probability" argument that some creationists use. The problems are: I've never heard of a "high" possibility of a multiverse. Second, God is not a "dude in the sky." That's actually the children's view of God.

Let me relate to you an Hindu story on this subject. (Before you say anything, let me point out that, contrary to popular belief, Hinduism is primarily monist, and some variants are fully monotheistic.) A woman of a lower class was walking in the woods, very hungry. She finally came across a temple, and before going inside to ask for food, she sat down by a tree to rest. A monk inside saw the woman from a window, and noticed that her feet were pointing to the temple, which he believed was a sign of disrespect. He went outside and told the woman to point her feet in another direction. She responded: "Venerable one, please show me where God is not, and I'll gladly point my feet in that direction."

(Okay that's not a perfect word-for-word relaying of the story, but I think you get the point.)

Now I know that the common argument is that you don't have religion, you have a belief. However, religion by definition is: a set of beliefs concerning the cause of the Universe. So therefore if you believe in a god or in anything besides facts and evidence it is a religion. People mistake that for what religion has become today, a cult following. People of today mistake cult for religion and religion for belief and belief with knowledge based on fact and evidence. A cult by definition is: a particular system of religious worship, with reference to its rights and ceremonies. So going to church means you are in a cult not religion and just believing in god make you religious. While, knowing that certain science laws are true based on evidence is not belief.

So I guess I am left with the only question I can actually articulate into words. Why? Why must we segregate each other and ourselves into these groups were we receive no benefit here on this Earth? We spend this whole life trying to get into the next life, when we cannot know 100% fact that there is another. If you say you know 100% that there is another life then you have no faith in your belief. Just the same as if you have faith you cannot know 100%. To prove that here is the definition of faith: Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. So with that being said you cannot have both so please tell me why? Why do we, as humans, feel the need to look forward into another life rather than live ours? Also as an extension, why rely on a book written 2,000 years in the past rather than look into advancing 2,000 years into the future?

By most of the points you raise, as well as the good organization of ideas, I can tell that you're very well-read. However, your knowledge of religions is still in its infancy, and I greatly admire the fact that you seem to be willing to allow that knowledge to grow.

Also, I can tell that you're either a fan of John Lennon's "Imagine," or you'd put it on your favorites list. :D (One of my favorites, to be sure.)

Now, to address your final point, religions tell us that how we live this life will influence what happens after we die. Abrahamic religions, primarily Christianity and Islam, teach that if we live good lives, which means following the will of God, we will inherit the Kingdom of God, living in paradise; if we turn from the will of God, we will suffer for all eternity. (Or, in some variants of Christianity, we cease to exist.) In the case of Mormonism, after we die, we are given a second chance of sorts to accept Christ, and only failing that would we be sent to hell.

In Hinduism, how we act in this life will influence what kind of life we are reborn as in the next life. Verses from the Bhagavad-Gita chapter XIV summarize the process:

Srimad-Bhagavad-Gita: Fourteenth Chapter. The Discrimination of the Three Gunas

Most Dharmic religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.) are about breaking free of the bond of reincarnation and becoming one with God(Brahman).

So, religions do say how to live in this life.

As to the Bible... it is not a single book written by a single author, or even a committe. The Old Testament is a small library of ancient Jewish literature compiled a few hundred years before the birt of Christ. The New Testament is a small collection of Christian writings, dominated by the letters of Paul, compiled a few hundred years after the birth of Christ. To further understand it, I reccomend you get a study Bible. For the OT, I reccomend the Jewish Study Bible. I do not yet know of a good Christian study Bible that doesn't have evangelical tendancies in the commentaries.
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend nxxb,

Rgds your query.
Sorry that view of religion is incorrect as true religion goes deeper than the normal thinking mind can.
Meditators in the past in India have developed medicine, which is called *Ayurveda* and many other aspects of life through meditation.
Religion that stunts growth is not true religion and so one must explore truth.
Love & rgds
 

nxxb

New Member
Humans fear, and therefore hate, anything we don't understand. Many wars and conflicts arose from simple misunderstandings.

We also get very defensive when someone comes and tells us that things aren't the way we've seen them to be for many years, often from childhood. This doesn't just apply to religion. A friend of mine hates, and last I checked was unwilling to accept, the fact that paleontologists has recently (well... not so recently anymore, I guess) stated that the tyrannosaurus may have been a scavenger instead of a hunter. I'd like to point out that this friend of mine is an atheist.

Yes, I can see where that is going, however shouldn't that flaw of defensiveness and fear be directed and the creator rather than the creation?

With a few exceptions, this is probably the best argument I've seen against the "extremely low probability" argument that some creationists use. The problems are: I've never heard of a "high" possibility of a multiverse. Second, God is not a "dude in the sky." That's actually the children's view of God.

Yeah, I was being an *** with the "dude in the sky" quote. My apologies, it was immature. With the multiverse theory however, I have been big in cosmology for some time and have researched for about a year now on the multiverse. Just the fact alone that we have a universe with many galaxies that reside in it and subsidiary galaxies that reside in those it was almost logic that solidified the multiverse. To show logical based decision though I did watch and read a lot about the theory of the multiverse and was greatly impressed.


By most of the points you raise, as well as the good organization of ideas, I can tell that you're very well-read. However, your knowledge of religions is still in its infancy, and I greatly admire the fact that you seem to be willing to allow that knowledge to grow.

Also, I can tell that you're either a fan of John Lennon's "Imagine," or you'd put it on your favorites list. :D (One of my favorites, to be sure.)

As a matter of fact I am a John Lennon fan, but my roommate obsesses over him and The Beatles, so that is where I learned about it. Lol

Also I was mainly regarding christianity as I know it from the culture I live in. I also have made it a hobby to learn about something before discussing it. I say hobby because, well, I enjoy expanding my intellect to its maximum potential and I would like to thank you for correcting me on a few of my "facts of misinformation."
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Yes, I can see where that is going, however shouldn't that flaw of defensiveness and fear be directed and the creator rather than the creation?

Only if such a Creator intended us to be perfect, which I somehow doubt. (I personally don't believe in a "Creator.")

Yeah, I was being an *** with the "dude in the sky" quote. My apologies, it was immature. With the multiverse theory however, I have been big in cosmology for some time and have researched for about a year now on the multiverse. Just the fact alone that we have a universe with many galaxies that reside in it and subsidiary galaxies that reside in those it was almost logic that solidified the multiverse. To show logical based decision though I did watch and read a lot about the theory of the multiverse and was greatly impressed.

True, that. I haven't researched much about the universe, and most of my current knowledge actually comes from the Universe documentary and the various BBC article about some new discovery or theory.

As a matter of fact I am a John Lennon fan, but my roommate obsesses over him and The Beatles, so that is where I learned about it. Lol

Also I was mainly regarding christianity as I know it from the culture I live in. I also have made it a hobby to learn about something before discussing it. I say hobby because, well, I enjoy expanding my intellect to its maximum potential and I would like to thank you for correcting me on a few of my "facts of misinformation."

Great! I look forward to future discussions and debates with you.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
I always disagree that religion had any negative effect on science. True, some religious leaders in the past tried to suppress people like Galileo and such, but it didn't stop them from learning and experimenting in the first place. Nothing in science could lessen the faith of a truly faithful person, it could only effect those with weak faith. :)
Welcome to the RF. It is always welcome when someone stated their opinions is a respectful way. :)
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Ever hear of the "monkeysphere" or more accurately "Dunbar's number"... Humans like all other social species are only as social as their highly evolved brains allow them to be.

That is why most social species have "pack size" limits. Humans are no different... we just are more flexible with who we put in our 'pack'.

If you compare brain size with group size in primates and apes you find a pretty good link between them. Larger brains scale with larger groups, and humans have been calculated to be 'optimal' in groups of around 150-200.

No big surprise that this is the size of an average 'primitive' settlement. (it's also the average size of the modern club, church, military company, academic sub-specialty... and so on.

We are limited by our evolutionary baggage. Larger groups become nebulous and easy to turn into abstractions... like the Nation, state or some "other group".

wa:do
 

nxxb

New Member
Sorry for my little absence I was out of town. Lol. It's nice to see people debating on my topic however. =] So I have done a little bit more digging and also found that other gods share the same background as Jesus Christ. (By same background I of course mean exact story) Can anyone verify this? Or does anyone else know about it? All I could find was the movie Zeitgeist and some other sites referring to the same stuff that was in that movie. Thanks again.
 

Andal

resident hypnotist
Sorry for my little absence I was out of town. Lol. It's nice to see people debating on my topic however. =] So I have done a little bit more digging and also found that other gods share the same background as Jesus Christ. (By same background I of course mean exact story) Can anyone verify this? Or does anyone else know about it? All I could find was the movie Zeitgeist and some other sites referring to the same stuff that was in that movie. Thanks again.

I wouldn't use Zeitgeist as a source. A lot of the info in it is incorrect or only partially true. If you would like to see a good documentary about the similarities between Jesus and other gods, check out the link below.

YouTube - The Hidden Story of Jesus (Part 1 of 11)
 
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