My views about Islam and why it is so difficult to attain constructive dialogue about them

[Kirran]

But that happened before the advent of Islam.There were hardly any Christians in Mecca or Medina, if Quran is correct about the Christians, there is no doubt about that; then the Quran must be correct about the Jews of Medina.

This is an absurd argument. The Qur'an got one thing right, and therefore all else must also be right? I can say that Jews worship God. That's true. Therefore, when I go on to say that Christians all worship a cat with butterfly wings, I must be right again.

This obviously doesn't make any sense. One has to test claims individually.

Quote:

View attachment 10043​

Unquote
https://books.google.ca/books?
THE MYSTERY & HISTORY OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE: AN AFRICAN PERSPECTIVE
By SAM OYSTEIN
Please note from the above that there existed some groups of the Jews who later became extinct.

Right, Jews are variable. It would be bizarre, but technically within the realms of possibility, for there to have been a denomination of Jews in Medina who thought that Ezra was Son of God. The Qur'an, being a perfect book, would surely have put 'the Jews of Medina' or something along those lines for basic clarity. Rather than saying something analogous to 'Humans are from Egypt' when in fact only one small sub-set of humans are from Egypt.

But I will reluctantly concede it on the grounds of the unprovable and undisprovable nature of your claim here. Or rather, that of the Qur'an.

One I would really like to address is 25:53:

"And He it is Who has made two seas to flow freely, the one sweet that subdues thirst by its sweetness, and the other salt that burns by its saltness; and between the two He has made a barrier and inviolable obstruction."

There is no inviolable obstruction between seas. There is a barrier which allows for diffusion.

 

[paarsurrey]

The Jews were superstitious people and were susceptible and inclined to the thoughts and concepts of paganism in the time of Moses as well as Jesus in spite of Moses and Jesus being against such thoughts.

For the influence of paganism/Hellenism on Judaism I would like to add to quote from the Jewish Encyclopedia which is only a glimpse of what actually was going on:

HELLENISM (from έλληνίζειν , "to speak Greek," or "to make Greek"):
Word used to express the assimilation, especially by the Jews, of Greek speech, manners, and culture, from the fourth centuryB.C. through the first centuries of the common era. Post-exilic Judaism was largely recruited from those returned exiles who regarded it as their chief task to preserve their religion uncontaminated, a task that required the strict separation of the congregation both from all foreign peoples (Ezra x. 11; Neh. ix. 2) and from the Jewish inhabitants of Palestine who did not strictly observe the Law (Ezra vi. 22; Neh. x. 29). This separation was especially difficult to maintain when the victorious campaign of Alexander the Great had linked the East to the West. The victory was not simply a political one. Its spiritual influence was much greater. The Greek language became a common language for nearer Asia, and with the language went Greek culture, Greek art, and Greek thought. The influence thus exerted did not entirely drive out the local languages or the local civilization. The Hellenic spirit was itself profoundly modified by contact with the Orient; and out of the mingling of the two there arose a pseudo-Greek culture which was often different in spirit from the true culture of Hellas.

Range of Hellenic Influence.

Except in Egypt, Hellenic influence was nowhere stronger than on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean. Greek cities arose there in continuation, or in place, of the older Semitic foundations, and gradually changed the aspect of the country. Such cities were Raphia, Gaza, Ascalon, Azotus, Jabneh, Jaffa, Cæsarea, Dor, and Ptolemais. It was especially in eastern Palestine that Hellenism took a firm hold, and the cities of the Decapolis (which seems also to have included Damascus) were the centers of Greek influence. This influence extended in later times over the whole of the district east of the Jordan and of the Sea of Gennesaret, especially inTrachonitis, Batanæa, and Auranitis. The cities in western Palestine were not excepted. Samaria and Panias were at an early time settled by Macedonian colonists. The names of places were Hellenized: "Rabbath-Ammon" to "Philadelphia"; "Armoab" to "Ariopolis"; "Akko" to "Ptolemais." The same occurred with personal names: "Ḥoni" became "Menelaus"; "Joshua" became "Jason" or "Jesus." The Hellenic influence pervaded everything, and even in the very strongholds of Judaism it modified the organization of the state, the laws, and public affairs, art, science, and industry, affecting even the ordinary things of life and the common associations of the people.

HELLENISM - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Regards

P.S.
I posted following comments on Jewish Encylopedia under topic "HELLENISM":
Paar Surrey
I appreciate the first two paragraphs of the above write-up. Under influence of the Hellenism/paganism the Jews had been influenced and resorted to borrowing their mythical religious concepts into their own religion. Jews being "sons of G-d" which was only a spiritual concept, not a physical one, some groups started believing it as physical for certain hero personalities of their religion (like Ezra). They were led astray from the Moses' teachings and needed to be reformed.
Regards

Reply·Like·Unfollow Post·June 29,2015

 

[paarsurrey]

One I would really like to address is 25:53:

That would be discussed and understood, there is no harm in it.
Just open a new thread regarding it in the General Religious Debates forum , open for Theists and Atheists.
Regards

 

[Flankerl]

Hellenistic Jews didn't even exist any more when Mohammed lived.

Also Hellenistic Jews never even lived on the Arabian Peninsula.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hellenistic Jews didn't even exist any more when Mohammed lived.

Also Hellenistic Jews never even lived on the Arabian Peninsula.

I never claimed it. Did I?
Regards

 

[Kirran]

I never claimed it. Did I?
Regards

You brought it up for some reason.

 

[Flankerl]

You brought it up for some reason.

Well somehow one has to support the Islamic mystery Jews who apparently were entirely different from all other Jews.

 

[paarsurrey]

You brought it up for some reason.

The context of the verse is very clear, Quran wants that Jews and Christians be cleansed and reformed to revert to the true teachings of Moses.They should relinquish the thoughts and concepts they borrowed from the Pagans as they were influenced in that era from them and that is a fact. Quranic admonition is for that purpose. They should become righteous, they are under a pledge for that.
Right?
Regards

 

[Kirran]

The context of the verse is very clear, Quran wants that Jews and Christians be cleansed and reformed to revert to the true teachings of Moses.They should relinquish the thoughts and concepts they borrowed from the Pagans as they were influenced in that era from them and that is a fact. Quranic admonition is for that purpose. They should become righteous, they are under a pledge for that.
Right?
Regards

'Right?'? No, I disagree. As I imagine you'd suspect, I don't think that Jews and Christians need to be cleansed.

 

[paarsurrey]

'Right?'? No, I disagree. As I imagine you'd suspect, I don't think that Jews and Christians need to be cleansed.

I don't agree with you.
The Jews later realized that they needed reformation and cleansing :

Quote.
"It was, however, in Alexandria that Jewish Hellenism reached its greatest development. Here, freed from the national bonds which held it firmly to tradition in Palestine, Hellenistic Judaism became more Hellenistic than Jewish.
It is not true to say...that Hellenism had no appreciable influence upon the development of Judaism; its influence was appreciable for many centuries; but it was driven out of the Jewish camp by the national sentiment aroused in the Maccabean and Bar Kokba revolts, and in forming the bridge between Judaism and Christianity it lost whatever permanent influence it might have possessed.
Since that time, even in Egypt, the classical home of Hellenism, rabbinical Jewish communities have flourished that have borne no perceptible trace of the movement which made Alexandria great..."Unquote
1906 Jewish Encylopedia​

Yet it was far from their religion being reverted to the pure teachings of Moses.
The fresh and sweet water of Revelation that descended on Moses from G-d was mixed with the saline and bitter impurities of paganism etc.
This is what is being discussed in the context verses (of verse [9:30]).

Regards

 

[Flankerl]

This is what is being discussed in the context verses (of verse [9:30]).

Except of course that the Hellenistic Jews had vanished centuries before Mohammed took his first stroll around Medina.
Also Hellenistic Jews never lived on the Arabian Peninsula.

 

[Shad]

I don't agree with you.
The Jews later realized that they needed reformation and cleansing :

Quote.
"It was, however, in Alexandria that Jewish Hellenism reached its greatest development. Here, freed from the national bonds which held it firmly to tradition in Palestine, Hellenistic Judaism became more Hellenistic than Jewish.
It is not true to say...that Hellenism had no appreciable influence upon the development of Judaism; its influence was appreciable for many centuries; but it was driven out of the Jewish camp by the national sentiment aroused in the Maccabean and Bar Kokba revolts, and in forming the bridge between Judaism and Christianity it lost whatever permanent influence it might have possessed.
Since that time, even in Egypt, the classical home of Hellenism, rabbinical Jewish communities have flourished that have borne no perceptible trace of the movement which made Alexandria great..."Unquote
1906 Jewish Encylopedia​

Yet it was far from their religion being reverted to the pure teachings of Moses.
The clean water of revelation that descended on Moses was mixed with the saline impurities of paganism.
This is what is being discussed in the context verses (of verse [9:30]).
Regards

Speculation only, no evidence has been provided by you other than circular reasoning

 

[LuisDantas]

The context of the verse is very clear, Quran wants that Jews and Christians be cleansed and reformed to revert to the true teachings of Moses.They should relinquish the thoughts and concepts they borrowed from the Pagans as they were influenced in that era from them and that is a fact. Quranic admonition is for that purpose. They should become righteous, they are under a pledge for that.
Right?
Regards

That is a very good reminder of why I find Islam to deserve attention, but not trust or a lot of sympathy.

 

[paarsurrey]

That is a very good reminder of why I find Islam to deserve attention, but not trust or a lot of sympathy.

I think, you mostly agreed with me.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Except of course that the Hellenistic Jews had vanished centuries before Mohammed took his first stroll around Medina.
Also Hellenistic Jews never lived on the Arabian Peninsula.

I think I was discussing about Hellenism/paganism and that the Jews had been influenced by them. Pagans did exist in Arabia.
Right ?
Regards

 

[Kirran]

I don't agree with you.

I am aware of that.

The Jews later realized that they needed reformation and cleansing :

Quote.
"It was, however, in Alexandria that Jewish Hellenism reached its greatest development. Here, freed from the national bonds which held it firmly to tradition in Palestine, Hellenistic Judaism became more Hellenistic than Jewish.
It is not true to say...that Hellenism had no appreciable influence upon the development of Judaism; its influence was appreciable for many centuries; but it was driven out of the Jewish camp by the national sentiment aroused in the Maccabean and Bar Kokba revolts, and in forming the bridge between Judaism and Christianity it lost whatever permanent influence it might have possessed.
Since that time, even in Egypt, the classical home of Hellenism, rabbinical Jewish communities have flourished that have borne no perceptible trace of the movement which made Alexandria great..."Unquote
1906 Jewish Encylopedia​

Yet it was far from their religion being reverted to the pure teachings of Moses.
The fresh and sweet water of Revelation that descended on Moses from G-d was mixed with the saline and bitter impurities of paganism etc.
This is what is being discussed in the context verses (of verse [9:30]).

OK, so Hellenistic Judaism existed. This is established.

It didn't exist in the Arabian Peninsula.

We have no evidence that its followers thought of Ezra as the Son of God.

It had died out by the time Islam was founded by Muhammad.

So what is the relevance of any of this?

 

[paarsurrey]

I am aware of that.
OK, so Hellenistic Judaism existed. This is established.
It didn't exist in the Arabian Peninsula.
We have no evidence that its followers thought of Ezra as the Son of God.
It had died out by the time Islam was founded by Muhammad.
So what is the relevance of any of this?

I think I was discussing about Hellenism/paganism and that the Jews had been influenced by them. Pagans did exist in Arabia.
Right ?
Regards

 

[LuisDantas]

I think, you mostly agreed with me.
Regards

No, I did not.

Your statement as I understand it was, in general lines, that the true religion must be the one given by God; that the Torah and the Gospels were such genuine revelations but the Jewish People and the Christians mishandled them; and that for that reason they need to submit to the Quran in order to correct their religious ways.

It is also my understanding that this is a fairly typical Muslim view of the matter.

That is not ever going to be something I can agree with, or even come close to. If anything, it almost seems designed for me to challenge with a passion.

Religion, to be valid, must be handled with a Dharmic approach. It must be validated not by a hypothetical deity, but by the acts, practice, hearts and minds of the adherents. And whatever scripture it may have is by definition no more than a minor, optional aid.

The validity of scripture itself is not, may never even conceivably be inherent to the text itself, nor to claims of divine origin. Among other reasons because text needs interpretation in order to have any meaning at all.

Instead, it is the religious person's duty to decide which scripture is worth of any attention and why. A true religious person will not only be capable of writing his or her own scripture, but will be very much aware of the need to explain when such scripture applies and when it does not.

Scripture is just not fit to be religious authority, by definition.

 

[Kirran]

I think I was discussing about Hellenism/paganism and that the Jews had been influenced by them. Pagans did exist in Arabia.
Right ?
Regards

Hellenism =/= Paganism.

 

[paarsurrey]

[9:30]And the Jews say, Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say, the Messiah is the son of Allah; that is what they say with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before them. Allah’s curse be on them! How are they turned away!

I would like to add here that Jesus explained the concept of Son of G-d in John 8 and I quote from it :

John 8:37-47
[37] I know that you are the children of Abraham: but you seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. [38] I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and you do the things that you have seen with your father. [39] They answered, and said to him: Abraham is our father. Jesus saith to them: If you be the children of Abraham, do the works of Abraham. [40] But now you seek to kill me, a man who have spoken the truth to you, which I have heard of God. This Abraham did not.
[41] You do the works of your father. They said therefore to him: We are not born of fornication: we have one Father, even God. [42] Jesus therefore said to them: If God were your Father, you would indeed love me. For from God I proceeded, and came; for I came not of myself, but he sent me: [43] Why do you not know my speech? Because you cannot hear my word. [44] You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and he stood not in the truth; because truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. [45] But if I say the truth, you believe me not.
[46] Which of you shall convince me of sin? If I say the truth to you, why do you not believe me?[47] He that is of God, heareth the words of God. Therefore you hear them not, because you are not of God.​

Jesus told the Jews of his day that since they were not abiding by the commandment of G-d, they had become sons of the Devil (and ceased to be sons of G-d), and in the same reasoning since Jesus was abiding by G-d's commandments so he was son of G-d .
Regards