My views about Islam and why it is so difficult to attain constructive dialogue about them

[leibowde84]

A murtadun like me is just itching for some nice fresh Muslim breaking I love the whole sound of it to! Sounds kinky like how I broke in my fiance to submit to will so she can serve my sexual desires alone ! I am a cruel master that even the Shaytan fears my waswas!

The narun in my qaliba cannot never be quenched until it faces battle!!!! Oh this talk of breaking is making my loins ache in anticipation! KIMOCHI!!

!!!أنا مستعد!!!

That is an extremely deranged sentiment.

 

[Sha'irullah]

That is an extremely deranged sentiment.

Like DUH! I just got excited hearing about,"breaking." There is just so much harsh talk coming out of users about bizarre things. I could understand if it was about a moral dilemma or concerns over politics but the whole set of tangent conversations here are weird.

 

[leibowde84]

Like DUH! I just got excited hearing about,"breaking." There is just so much harsh talk coming out of users about bizarre things. I could understand if it was about a moral dilemma or concerns over politics but the whole set of tangent conversations here are weird.

If you don't like the harsh talk of users about bizarre things, why were you adding to it with your previous comment?

 

[Sha'irullah]

If you don't like the harsh talk of users about bizarre things, why were you adding to it with your previous comment?

It is called being funny, and I also never said I dislike harsh language. I am actually disappointed nothing happened because my days as a Muslim has always taught me that nobody gets offended easier than a Muslim man on his menstrual cycle.

Seriously though I can only laugh at what I have witnessed personally regarding Islam being challenged. It is quite funny and I had my hopes up it would happen here.

 

[leibowde84]

It is called being funny, and I also never said I dislike harsh language. I am actually disappointed nothing happened because my days as a Muslim has always taught me that nobody gets offended easier than a Muslim man on his menstrual cycle.

Seriously though I can only laugh at what I have witnessed personally regarding Islam being challenged. It is quite funny and I had my hopes up it would happen here.

Fair enough. I agree. No religion, including Islam, should ever be off-limits to criticism.

 

[Sabour]

because traditional Islamic belief includes the claim that all people are in fact born as believers in Islam

I know this is a "your view thread", but I think you might want to replace the word Islam with God

 

[LuisDantas]

I know this is a "your view thread", but I think you might want to replace the word Islam with God

I don't mind your post, but as I understand it the change would not be necessary nor very accurate.

But you got me interested in learning why you think the change would be called for.

 

[Marcion]

I wonder how difficult the dialogue with Sufi muslims would be.
Because sufi's seem to be the exact opposite of extremist muslims who see everyone outside of their narrow vision of Islam as despicable unbelievers.

I practise a form of tantra-yoga and the founder told several times that this particular modernised form of tantra-yoga (which is quite universal in outlook) can best be compared to Sufism rather than to any other path.

It seems to me odd that in Islam you can find both the extreme poles from narrow xenophobic sectarian thinking all the way to mystical and universal orientation.

 

[Vinayaka]

It seems to me odd that in Islam you can find both the extreme poles from narrow xenophobic sectarian thinking all the way to mystical and universal orientation.

I think that range is in all the major religions, so why would it be surprising for Islam?

 

[Marcion]

I think that range is in all the major religions, so why would it be surprising for Islam?

Perhaps because e.g. in many hindu paths these poles seem to be less extreme, at least on the surface?

 

[Vinayaka]

Perhaps because e.g. in many hindu paths these poles seem to be less extreme, at least on the surface?

Yes I think that's very true. The Hindu 'extremist' advocating violence is very rare indeed, if he exists at all.

 

[LuisDantas]

It seems to me odd that in Islam you can find both the extreme poles from narrow xenophobic sectarian thinking all the way to mystical and universal orientation.

It may help if you consider that the Dharmic attitude happens spontaneously everywhere and towards improving on the legacy that we receive.

If anything, it will work that much harder when directly faced with very serious, very dangerous flaws.

And for Islaams the flaws that they have to deal with are IMO so deep and so undeniable that most Muslims end up having no choice but to improve on the Qur'an without necessarily realizing it.

While it is dangerous and wasteful to have a strict and deeply flawed scripture at the core of one's belief system, it may also at least occasionally lead to rather formidable feats of self-discovery and realization.

 

[paarsurrey]

Easily said. But actually, no, you haven't explained why 9:30 is there, it really doesn't make sense and is incorrect. You've given it a try, but actually it is incorrect that 'Jews believe Ezra is Son of Allah' because even if, bizarrely, the Jews of Medina did believe this, that isn't what is said in the Qur'an. It says 'the Jews' not 'the Jews of Medina'.

23:14 and 16:15 remain entirely unexplained.

I just quote from Wikipedia on the issue of " Ezra or Uzair being 'Son of God' " :
” The Book of Ezra, which Judaism accepts as a chronicle of the life of Ezra and which predates Muhammad and the Qur’an by around 1000 years, gives Ezra’s human lineage as being the son of Seraiah and a direct descendant of Aaron. Tractate Ta’anit of the Jerusalem Talmud, which predates Muhammad by two to three hundred years, states that “if a man claims to be God, he is a liar.”[17] Exodus Rabba 29 says, “‘I am the first and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God’ I am the first, I have no father; I am the last, I have no brother. Beside Me there is no God; I have no son.”[18] However the term ‘sons of gods’ occurs in Genesis.[19] The Encyclopedia of Judaism clarifies that the title of ‘son of God’ is attributed a person whose piety has placed him in a very near relationship to God and “by no means carries the idea of physical descent from, and essential unity with, God”.[20]
The title of son of God (servant of God) is used by the Jews for any pious person as is evident according to Encyclopedia of Judaism which states that the title of son of God is attributed by the Jews “to any one whose piety has placed him in a filial relation to God (see Wisdom ii. 13, 16, 18; v. 5, where “the sons of God” are identical with “the saints”; comp. Ecclus. [Sirach] iv. 10). It is through such personal relations that the individual becomes conscious of God’s fatherhood.”[20] Jews consider Ezra among the pious.” unquote
Uzair - Wikipedia

• Exod. Rabba 29, “…I am the first, I have no father; I am the last, I have no brother; Beside Me there is no God; I have no son.”
• ^ Ta’anit (2:1)
• ^ Exodus Rabba
• ^ The Bible, Genesis, Ch. 6, v. 2
• ^ a b SON OF GOD - JewishEncyclopedia.com

”In A History of the Jews of Arabia: From Ancient Times to Their Eclipse under Islam,[24] scholar Gordon Darnell Newby notes the following on the topic of Uzair, the angel Metatron and the Bene Elohim (lit. “Sons of God”):

…we can deduce that the inhabitants of Hijaz during Muhammad‘s time knew portions, at least, of 3 Enoch in association with the Jews. The angels over which Metatron becomes chief are identified in the Enoch traditions as the sons of God, the Bene Elohim, the Watchers, the fallen ones as the causer of the flood. In 1 Enoch, and 4 Ezra, the term Son of God can be applied to the Messiah, but most often it is applied to the righteous men, of whom Jewish tradition holds there to be no more righteous than the ones God elected to translate to heaven alive. It is easy, then, to imagine that among the Jews of the Hijaz who were apparently involved in mystical speculations associated with the merkabah, Ezra, because of the traditions of his translation, because of his piety, and particularly because he was equated with Enoch as the Scribe of God, could be termed one of the Bene Elohim. And, of course, he would fit the description of religious leader (one of the ahbar of the Qur’an 9:31) whom the Jews had exalted.[8]

According to Reuven Firestone, there is evidence of groups of Jews venerating Ezra to an extent greater than mainstream Judaism, which fits with the interpretation that the verse merely speaks of a small group of Jews. The book 2 Esdras, a non-canonical book attributed to Babylonian captivity, associates a near-divine or angelic status to Ezra.[25] Mark Lidzbarski and Michael Lodahl have also hypothesized existence of an Arabian Jewish sect whose veneration of Ezra bordered on deification.[7]“
Uzair - Wikipedia

1. Mun’im Sirry (2014). Scriptural Polemics: The Qur’an and Other Religions. Oxford University Press. p. 48.
2. ^ a b G. D. Newby, A History Of The Jews Of Arabia, 1988, University Of South Carolina Press, p. 59 (quoted in Was `Uzayr (Ezra) Called The Son Of God? by M S M Saifullah & Mustafa Ahmed

” Rabbi Allen Maller states that there is a hadith in sunan Tirmidhi which states that Jews worship their rabbis, because they accept what their rabbis say over the Word of God. He affirms this to be true because Orthodox Jews practice Judaism based on the rabbi’s interpretation of the oral Torah. He also cites that ibn Abbas narrated that four Jews believed that Uzayr was the son of God.[26] “

Uzair - Wikipedia

Rabbi Allen Maller. “Do Jews Worship Ezra? – IslamiCity”. http://www.islamicity.org.

Regards
_________________

Verse (5:18) – English Translation

Arberry: Say the Jews and Christians, ‘We are the sons of God, and His beloved ones.’ Say: ‘Why then does He chastise you for your sins? No; you are mortals, of His creating; He forgives whom He will, and He chastises whom He will.’ For to God belongs the kingdom of the heavens and of the earth, and all that is between them; to Him is the homecoming.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

 

[paarsurrey]

and the acceptance of a line of prophets that includes Abraham

One is welcome to differ with me, yet I will express my belief that I find truthful no compulsion whatsoever for others to accept it or to get convinced with it. One has to find one's own way for one's life. It is just a gesture for peaceful dialogue.

Abrahamic line has been given only because Muhammad happened to be from that line, but that does not exclude others. It is Quran's style to start with the immediate people that makes it pragmatic , then to make it generic and to generalize for the whole world. There is nothing hypothetical, all from real life.

Mohammad to be the final prophet of God

Quran is the final and formal Word of G-d, in that sense yes. In status Muhammad is the last prophet/messenger of G-d. After him there could come caliph/prophets who would follow Quran, that does not change the status of Muhammad as a master prophet/messenger.

Islam somewhat assumes that all people are ultimately Muslims, or at least would be Muslims if correctly informed and oriented

Muslim is a generic name it does not relate to a person (like Zoroastrian relate to Zoroaster or Christians to Christ or Buddhist to Buddha etc), anybody who submits to truth and is perfectly peaceful with truth qualifies to be called a muslim which in fact the word means. If one with one's own free-will wants to become a formal Muslim then one has to openly declare and become one as such.
I think it helps.
Does it, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

and the acceptance of a line of prophets that includes Abraham

One is welcome to differ with me, yet I will express my belief that I find truthful no compulsion whatsoever for others to accept it or to get convinced with it. One has to find one's own way for one's life. It is just a gesture for peaceful dialogue.

Abrahamic line has been given only because Muhammad happened to be from that line, but that does not exclude others. It is Quran's style to start with the immediate people that makes it pragmatic , then to make it generic and to generalize for the whole world. There is nothing hypothetical, all from real life.

Mohammad to be the final prophet of God

Quran is the final and formal Word of G-d, in that sense yes. In status Muhammad is the last prophet/messenger of G-d. After him there could come caliph/prophets who would follow Quran, that does not change the status of Muhammad as a master prophet/messenger.

Islam somewhat assumes that all people are ultimately Muslims, or at least would be Muslims if correctly informed and oriented

Muslim is a generic name it does not relate to a person (like Zoroastrian relate to Zoroaster or Christians to Christ or Buddhist to Buddha etc), anybody who submits to truth and is perfectly peaceful with truth qualifies to be called a muslim which in fact the word means. If one with one's own free-will wants to become a formal Muslim then one has to openly declare and become one as such.
I think it helps.
Does it, please?
Any update from our @LuisDantas , please.

Regards