• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Mysticism anti-dogmatic?

ayani

member
lunamoth said:
For another perspective a good book is Ascent to Truth by Thomas Merton, which discusses the mysticism and theology of St. John of the Cross.

I think that mysticism and doctrine/dogma/theology can go hand in hand to the betterment of both.

yes- yes.

have been reading Mother Teresa lately. her spiritual life was very much tied up with the doctrines of the Catholic Church- her path and example were those of a true mystic. she loved the eucharist, Jesus, the Catholic Church, and manifested that love to others.

also- Teresa of Avilla (a good friend of John of the Cross) comes to mind. man, was she bossy! a very bossy, very faithful, very Catholic mystic.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Dogma, to the extent that it represents authority, is non-mystic. Mysticism is about direct and authentic personal experience. So if Thomas Merton finds that certain dogmas represent for him his direct and personal experience of the divine, or God or whatever one wants to call it, that dogma can be an aspect of the mystic's experience, but not because it is dogma. Rather its value is found from it's intrinsic truth to an individual mystic. Not its external authority.
 

ayani

member
doppelgänger said:
Dogma, to the extent that it represents authority, is non-mystic.

well, i think that depends on the individual's repsonse to that authority, and what form it takes. the authority of the doctrine of God's existence and love for individuals? the authority of popes writing letters of outrage because so-and-so is levitating again? Teresa of Avilla cherished the former.

Mysticism is about direct and authentic personal experience. So if Thomas Merton finds that certain dogmas represent for him his direct and personal experience of the divine, or God or whatever one wants to call it, that dogma can be an aspect of the mystic's experience, but not because it is dogma. Rather its value is found from it's intrinsic truth to an individual mystic. Not its external authority.

i don't know... i would describe my practice as both based on an assumed dogma and also as mystical. true, dogma can be confining, or can be moved beyond. it can also be a stepping stone for the personal and direct experience of God.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
doppelgänger;849354 said:
Dogma, to the extent that it represents authority, is non-mystic. Mysticism is about direct and authentic personal experience. So if Thomas Merton finds that certain dogmas represent for him his direct and personal experience of the divine, or God or whatever one wants to call it, that dogma can be an aspect of the mystic's experience, but not because it is dogma. Rather its value is found from it's intrinsic truth to an individual mystic. Not its external authority.
That was very helpful Dopp...:)
I can almost completely agree with that.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
i don't know... i would describe my practice as both based on an assumed dogma and also as mystical. true, dogma can be confining, or can be moved beyond. it can also be a stepping stone for the personal and direct experience of God.

Well, that's what I'm saying. That it happens to also be a dogma is incidental to whether it is a "stepping stone for the personal and direct experience of God."
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
yes- yes.

have been reading Mother Teresa lately. her spiritual life was very much tied up with the doctrines of the Catholic Church- her path and example were those of a true mystic. she loved the eucharist, Jesus, the Catholic Church, and manifested that love to others.

also- Teresa of Avilla (a good friend of John of the Cross) comes to mind. man, was she bossy! a very bossy, very faithful, very Catholic mystic.
Oh yeah! I think Hindu's and many other religions adored that women. She didn't have to say word and people felt the divine in her.
 

ayani

member
doppelgänger said:
Well, that's what I'm saying. That it happens to also be a dogma is incidental to whether it is a "stepping stone for the personal and direct experience of God."

hmm. ok, i think i get that. what of those mystics who view the dogma as the origin or center of their experiences? is the dogma, in your view, something to be pulled away from as one's spiritual life deepens?
 

lunamoth

Will to love
Well, in the spirit of Abogado del Diablo, I offer this bit by Merton re: St. John of the Cross.

"Some of the most beautiful and valuable pages of St. John of the Cross are, as a matter of fact, in this category; they are observations of mystical experience, illustrated at times by Scriptural application. Nevertheless, St. John of the Cross is not content with this. He realizes that the applied sense of Scripture has no theological value, and that the use of Scriptural texts by mystical authors is not theology if it does not teach us some truth revealed by God. When a mystic takes a passage from the Bible out of its context and adapts it to his own spiritual experience, his use of Scripture is merely literary. Employed in such a way, a quotation from Scripture has no more theological force than a quotation from Homer. It is not enough, thinks St. John of the Cross, to use Scripture as the mirror of one's own interior life. Therefore, even though he draws upon his experimental knowledge of mysticism, he does not attempt to prove anything by that experience alone. All that he says of the graces of prayer serves him as an occasion to seek out the final theological answer, the true Catholic doctrine on each point, in the revealed word of God."
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
hmm. ok, i think i get that. what of those mystics who view the dogma as the origin or center of their experiences? is the dogma, in your view, something to be pulled away from as one's spiritual life deepens?

Not if one finds a personal meaning representing their reflections on direct experience in what otherwise happens to be dogma. But trying to cling to the dogma out of tradition can certainly get in the way of connecting directly. My personal experience is that dogmas can really only be appreciated from the outside of the tradition. The best way for me to connect on a personal level with the mythology of my inheritance was to learn to connect with foreign mythologies and develop my own spiritual methodology. I'm reminded of Novalis's statement about the function of great art: to "make the strange familiar and the familiar strange." For me, mysticism is about method and has little or nothing to do with ontology, metaphysics or "belief." Your mileage may vary.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Well, in the spirit of Abogado del Diablo, I offer this bit by Merton re: St. John of the Cross.

Abogado del Diablo wouldn't say that.:)
"Employed in such a way, a quotation from Scripture has no more theological force than a quotation from Homer."

Why does anything a human wrote in human language have any "theological force"? You can take it all in context and it still has no more power than a quotation from Homer, but for the power you choose to give it.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Just as the map is not the terrain, the dogma is not the experience. Mystics seem to me to usually be more concerned with the experience than they are with any map of it.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
doppelgänger;849407 said:
Well, then cross your fingers and hope the particular dogma at issue can't be interpreted to justify marginalizing, hurting and killing people. Somehow they always do though. :sad:
No need. You know as well as I do that's what usually happens with anything put into writing.
 

Pariah

Let go
Oh yeah! I think Hindu's and many other religions adored that women. She didn't have to say word and people felt the divine in her.

Mother Teresa? I'm willing to bet there are million of Hindus who hated her.
Mother Teresa loved suffering so much that she surrounded herself with it instead of curing the people who suffered! Maybe we should re-think the title of Saint, unless this is what it means to you.

Take a gander at this episode of Penn and Teller.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8q1m-8npkJ4
 
Top