Mythology Vs. History - Round #1

[allfoak]

“It would not be too much to say that myth is the secret opening through which the inexhaustible energies of the cosmos pour into human cultural manifestations.” ~ Joseph Campbell

Read more at: Joseph Campbell’s Four Basic Functions of Mythology | FractalEnlightenment.com

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

(quote)

Colossians 2:8
8 Look out that no one takes you captive by means of the philosophy and empty deception according to human tradition, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ;

The bible was written by humans.

 

[Daisies4me]

The bible was written by humans.

(quote)
Of course it was written by humans. God used some 40 men, over a period of 1600 years. They give the human understanding and at times personal accounts of what they saw or heard. Its writers lived at different times and came from many walks of life. Some were farmers, fishermen, and shepherds. Others were prophets, judges, and kings. The Gospel writer Luke was a doctor. Despite the varied backgrounds of its writers, the Bible is harmonious from beginning to end.
The first book of the Bible tells us how mankind’s problems began. The last book shows that the whole earth will become a paradise, or garden. All the material in the Bible covers thousands of years of history and relates in some way to the unfolding of God’s purpose. The harmony of the Bible is impressive, but that is what we would expect of a book from God.

In any case, the Inspired Writings were given to them by God through His Holy Spirit, which is the most powerful force that exists anywhere in time. The same Holy Spirit that God used to create the planet earth. See Genesis 1:2.

Hebrews 4:12
12 For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints from the marrow, and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart.

“Men spoke from God as they were moved by holy spirit.” (2 Peter 1:21)

This may not change your opinion, but thanks for allowing me to express mine.
Hope you have a great day

 

[metis]

In any case, the Inspired Writings were given to them by God through His Holy Spirit, which is the most powerful force that exists anywhere in time.

And that was done through the auspices of the Catholic Church ordered by Constantine in the 4th century, and it took over 1/2 a century to come up with the final texts, but with the Apocrypha left in a state of limbo.

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

(quote)
Of course it was written by humans. God used some 40 men, over a period of 1600 years. They give the human understanding and at times personal accounts of what they saw or heard. Its writers lived at different times and came from many walks of life. Some were farmers, fishermen, and shepherds. Others were prophets, judges, and kings. The Gospel writer Luke was a doctor. Despite the varied backgrounds of its writers, the Bible is harmonious from beginning to end.
The first book of the Bible tells us how mankind’s problems began. The last book shows that the whole earth will become a paradise, or garden. All the material in the Bible covers thousands of years of history and relates in some way to the unfolding of God’s purpose. The harmony of the Bible is impressive, but that is what we would expect of a book from God.

In any case, the Inspired Writings were given to them by God through His Holy Spirit, which is the most powerful force that exists anywhere in time. The same Holy Spirit that God used to create the planet earth. See Genesis 1:2.

Hebrews 4:12
12 For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints from the marrow, and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart.

“Men spoke from God as they were moved by holy spirit.” (2 Peter 1:21)

This may not change your opinion, but thanks for allowing me to express mine.
Hope you have a great day

But most Muslims and Hindu claim that their scriptures where divinely inspire as well.

How is that any different?

 

[Daisies4me]

And that was done through the auspices of the Catholic Church ordered by Constantine in the 4th century, and it took over 1/2 a century to come up with the final texts, but with the Apocrypha left in a state of limbo.

(quote)
The modern day accepted Bible Canon indeed has the stamp of approval from the RCC. Might I ask your opinion on some further examination on the matter?

Glossary
Canon (Bible canon)

Non-Biblical Term

The expression “Bible canon” came to denote the collection, or list, of books accepted as genuine inspired Scripture.

The term “canon” is derived from the Hebrew word qa·nehʹ (reed). Reeds were used as a rule or measuring device. (Eze 41:8) Fittingly, the Bible canon, or catalog of inspired books, enables the reader to “measure” faith, doctrine, and conduct.

The canon of the Hebrew Scriptures was established by the end of the fifth century B.C.E. According to Jewish tradition, the skilled scribe and inspired Bible writer Ezra began the work, and it was completed by Nehemiah. (Ezr 7:6, ftn.) The writing of the Christian Greek Scriptures was completed during the time that the gifts of the spirit were operative on Christ’s followers. (Joh 14:26; Re 1:1) Some Christians had the gift of “discernment of inspired expressions.” (1Co 12:10) Thus, they could, without referring the matter to a supposed church council, determine which of the letters the congregation received were inspired of God. With the death of John, the last apostle, this reliable chain of divinely inspired men came to an end. Therefore, with the book of Revelation, John’s Gospel, and his three letters, the Bible canon was closed. The testimony of later, non-inspired writers is valuable only as an acknowledgment of the Bible canon, which God’s spirit had guided and authorized.

~~Canon (Bible Canon) - Definition and Meaning | Bible Dictionary

 

[Daisies4me]

But most Muslims and Hindu claim that their scriptures where divinely inspire as well.

How is that any different?

(quote)

Hi CP
This is true. It is contingent upon each individual to search for God. Free will to choose is a gift from God to all men. The Bible foretold that after the death of Christ, false teachers would arise among the early Christians and corrupt Bible truth. (Acts 20:29, 30)
In time, that is exactly what happened. They mixed Jesus’ teachings with pagan religious ideas, and a counterfeit form of Christianity developed. (2 Timothy 4:3, 4)
The Injil refers to the NT of the Bible, usually the 4 gospels. The Qu'ran asserts that Allah revealed the previous scriptures to the Jews and to the Christians, but that those who knew the Scriptures, 'changed the words from their "right places" and "forgot a good part of the message" .
Now, such differences actually make true discernment of such matters up to the individual, and most appropriately, the heart condition of the person doing the searching, and their true intent for attempting to find truths from The Almighty God. Those honestly seeking accurate knowledge and understanding for the right reasons, will find it.
At the juncture, many people have 'come out of' many religions practiced around the world, and are now all in agreement (1Corinthians 1:10) with all others around the globe, in all languages, races, nationalities, etc., in unity of worship of the Only True God, Jehovah. If you go to any Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses (the place we go for worship and study about out God and His purposes for mankind and the earth) around the world, at any given time, you will find the same exact teachings from the Bible, and the same understanding of all in attendance there. We all 'speak in agreement', and are in unity in our worship of the Only True God. We have no divisions among us, regardless of where we live, or what language we speak. At this time it is in over 240 lands around the world. And in over 400 languages and dialects. In unity of worship.
It is as Jesus commanded His followers, and the evidence of obedience to His commandment given at
Matthew 28:19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations,+ baptizing them+ in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.+ And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

Hope this helps.

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

(quote)

Hi CP
This is true. It is contingent upon each individual to search for God. Free will to choose is a gift from God to all men. The Bible foretold that after the death of Christ, false teachers would arise among the early Christians and corrupt Bible truth. (Acts 20:29, 30)
In time, that is exactly what happened. They mixed Jesus’ teachings with pagan religious ideas, and a counterfeit form of Christianity developed. (2 Timothy 4:3, 4)
The Injil refers to the NT of the Bible, usually the 4 gospels. The Qu'ran asserts that Allah revealed the previous scriptures to the Jews and to the Christians, but that those who knew the Scriptures, 'changed the words from their "right places" and "forgot a good part of the message" .
Now, such differences actually make true discernment of such matters up to the individual, and most appropriately, the heart condition of the person doing the searching, and their true intent for attempting to find truths from The Almighty God. Those honestly seeking accurate knowledge and understanding for the right reasons, will find it.
At the juncture, many people have 'come out of' many religions practiced around the world, and are now all in agreement (1Corinthians 1:10) with all others around the globe, in all languages, races, nationalities, etc., in unity of worship of the Only True God, Jehovah. If you go to any Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses (the place we go for worship and study about out God and His purposes for mankind and the earth) around the world, at any given time, you will find the same exact teachings from the Bible, and the same understanding of all in attendance there. We all 'speak in agreement', and are in unity in our worship of the Only True God. We have no divisions among us, regardless of where we live, or what language we speak. At this time it is in over 240 lands around the world. And in over 400 languages and dialects. In unity of worship.
It is as Jesus commanded His followers, and the evidence of obedience to His commandment given at
Matthew 28:19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations,+ baptizing them+ in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.+ And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

Hope this helps.

Christianity mixed it's teachings with pagan teachings much more than Muslims.

But that is besides the point.

You have not addressed how Muslims and Hindus can have their own holybooks.

Why would a god use fallible humans to spread his word?

 

[metis]

The modern day accepted Bible Canon indeed has the stamp of approval from the RCC.

Actually it was the CC not the RCC back then as "Roman" was not added until the Uniate churches affiliated with the CC.

It was far more complicated than a "stamp of approval" as there were roughly 1000 "books" to chose from, and several of them that were accepted were hotly debated, such as Hebrews and Revelation. This is why it took over 1/2 century to hash out.

The writing of the Christian Greek Scriptures was completed during the time that the gifts of the spirit were operative on Christ’s followers. (Joh 14:26; Re 1:1)

Completed but not yet selected, the latter of which was done in the 4th & 5th centuries. See above.

Thus, they could, without referring the matter to a supposed church council, determine which of the letters the congregation received were inspired of God.

If it were that easy, the selection process would have been much shorter and not as hotly debated.

Also, the mark of the early church was not the Bible but was whether one's local church had bishops/elders that were appointed by other bishops/elders going all the way back to the apostles, and this process clearly shows up in Acts and some of the epistles.

Therefore, it is the church that chose the Bible and not the Bible that chose the church, which is a historical fact that's really quite easy to verify.

Take care.

 

[Daisies4me]

Christianity mixed it's teachings with pagan teachings much more than Muslims.

But that is besides the point.
-------------

D: I don't think it is 'besides the point', I think it is a very applicable point. You see. the Churches of Christendom, who believe false doctrines like the trinity, the immortal soul, hellfire, etc., are not in harmony with the teachings of Jesus Christ, nor the Bible. It is true that they have in fact, incorporated pagan teachings. And yet, they have the nerve to falsely accuse those who reject such pagan doctrines as non Biblical, and their teachers/priests/preachers to be far from the Truth of what the Bible actually teaches. Which is where 'Babylon the Great' comes into play. all who adhere to pagan doctrines of men will receive the same plagues and the same eventuality. Reference Revelation 18:3-5 in your Bible, if you wish to see it stated.
----------------

You have not addressed how Muslims and Hindus can have their own holybooks.

D: what? did you miss it? please, do reread my posts to you. I have nothing to do with what free will people choose to do or believe. I only introduce the Bible's answers to questions that apply to any given topic, and my own beliefs, as I have repeatedly said. Do you control what philosophers write who disagree with other philospher's opinions? Let each one do as they have desired in their own hearts. The only thing we get in this life is SELF control. Not control of others. Free will applies to all. Regardless of race, creed, nationality, religious persuasion, etc., etc.
----------

Why would a god use fallible humans to spread his word?

D: why not? Was Moses infallible? sure, but God used him. Was Noah infallible? sure. every living being with the exception of Jesus is infallible.
There is no infallible human being . All depend on God for the life force that sustains them. Do you not think that, if God's holy spirit can seal the mouths of lions, to protect Daniel when thrown into the pit to be animal food, or that God could save 8 human souls during a global deluge where all others perished, can He not guide men by holy spirit, to write what He wants mankind to know? What does ALMIGHTY mean?

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

D: why not? Was Moses infallible? sure, but God used him. Was Noah infallible? sure. every living being with the exception of Jesus is infallible.
There is no infallible human being . All depend on God for the life force that sustains them. Do you not think that, if God's holy spirit can seal the mouths of lions, to protect Daniel when thrown into the pit to be animal food, or that God could save 8 human souls during a global deluge where all others perished, can He not guide men by holy spirit, to write what He wants mankind to know? What does ALMIGHTY mean?

This argument only works if you have already assumed that your religion is true, does it does nothing to prove your religion.

Why did you first believe in Christianity?

 

[Daisies4me]

Actually it was the CC not the RCC back then as "Roman" was not added until the Uniate churches affiliated with the CC.

It was far more complicated than a "stamp of approval" as there were roughly 1000 "books" to chose from, and several of them that were accepted were hotly debated, such as Hebrews and Revelation. This is why it took over 1/2 century to hash out.

Completed but not yet selected, the latter of which was done in the 4th & 5th centuries. See above.

If it were that easy, the selection process would have been much shorter and not as hotly debated.

Also, the mark of the early church was not the Bible but was whether one's local church had bishops/elders that were appointed by other bishops/elders going all the way back to the apostles, and this process clearly shows up in Acts and some of the epistles.

Therefore, it is the church that chose the Bible and not the Bible that chose the church, which is a historical fact that's really quite easy to verify.

Take care.

(quote)

Hiya again, friend.
I am going to go along with the Biblical account and accept that the Christians prior to the formation of the 'Church', already had the knowledge of what was 'inspired of God', and it was not a thing that any group after the Christian Congregation that the 'Church' attempted to annihilate, did,
particularly, that affected the already complete 'canonized' books of the Bible before the 'church' took it upon themselves to become 'caretakers of the word of God', during which time they would put people to death for simply reading or having in their possession, a copy of the Scriptures.

I realize that we will have to agree to disagree on most of this post, but in all fairness, I feel compelled to state my honest opinion on the matter.

I believe that the Catholic Church at that time, led by the Roman ruler Constantine, imo, was attempting to solidify his kingdom, rather than adhere to the teachings of the Bible. He was attempting to placate Christians be admitting them, and intermingled the rituals and doctrines of pagan Sun worship, with the beliefs of Christians. They polluted Christianity. Hence, the creation of the Apostate Church that Paul prophesied about, that would take over after the death of the last Apostle.
The conflict between Christians and the political rulers who made themselves also "spiritual" rulers, are the ones who added the pagan doctrines to suit their own power and control over people.

Please take time to peruse this article on the life of
constantine:
Constantine | Portraits From the Past

maybe a new thought for you? Or perhaps you have heard it before-- either way, Peace be with you.

 

[Daisies4me]

This argument only works if you have already assumed that your religion is true, does it does nothing to prove your religion.

Why did you first believe in Christianity?

(quote)

LOLOL CP-- think about it-- If I didn't believe my faith to be true, don't you think that I would certainly go somewhere else...?

What faith, if any, do you adhere to?

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

(quote)

LOLOL CP-- think about it-- If I didn't believe my faith to be true, don't you think that I would certainly go somewhere else...?

What faith, if any, do you adhere to?

I follow none.

Now can you please answer my question?

What made you follow Christianity in the first place?

 

[Daisies4me]

I follow none.

Now can you please answer my question?

What made you follow Christianity in the first place?

(quote)

Cp, did you answer my question to you? no. What does Almighty mean?

You ignore most of the questions or statements given to you that do answer your questions. Repetition at times gets a bit tedious. I have answered your question before. Not getting the answer you are looking for? Or perhaps you didn't understand the answers.
Well, that's just too bad, isn't it? You see, sometimes things can go both ways. I realize that you are very young and inexperienced. So please allow me to encourage you that you will get much farther much faster in life, if you learn to respect others. No one here owes you anything. And a snotty attitude gets you nowhere fast.
Read my replies, and you will find many answers.

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

(quote)

Cp, did you answer my question to you? no.

Um....you asked:

(quote)

LOLOL CP-- think about it-- If I didn't believe my faith to be true, don't you think that I would certainly go somewhere else...?

What faith, if any, do you adhere to?

And I replied:

I follow none.

Now can you please answer my question?

What made you follow Christianity in the first place?

So yes....yes I did.

What does Almighty mean?

You ignore most of the questions or statements given to you that do answer your questions. Repetition at times gets a bit tedious. I have answered your question before. Not getting the answer you are looking for? Or perhaps you didn't understand the answers.

I'm not going to go of on a tangent with you.

If you believe in your religion for a rational reason then I want to here that reason, not any justifications you have come up with after the fact.

Quoting the bible at someone who has read the bible cover to cover several times and sees no basis of belief in it does nothing until you can provide a reason why it is a trustworthy source.

Well, that's just too bad, isn't it? You see, sometimes things can go both ways. I realize that you are very young and inexperienced.

To be frank with you, I'm not sure if you have more experience in philosophy than I do. (Please note that theology is not philosophy but a separate field.

So please allow me to encourage you that you will get much farther much faster in life, if you learn to respect others.

I don't have a problem with you or almost anyone here aside from the people that I think are being intentionally deceptive.

I think you are taking an attack against an idea or belief as an attack against you personally, which my small amount of life experience has taught me is a very bad attitude to have if you are seeking truth.

No one here owes you anything. And a snotty attitude gets you nowhere fast.

Where are you getting this idea? Frankly I think resorting to personal insults over a simple debate is more negative.

Read my replies, and you will find many answers.

I did. I find no answers, only assertions.

 

[PilgrimOfLight]

the Bible is harmonious from beginning to end.

Really? Frankly, when read/taken literally it contains 100s (prob 1000s) of contradictions and mismatches. Hardly harmonious !

GE 4:9 God asks Cain where his brother Able is.
PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from his view.


"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." -- James 1:13
"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham..." -- Genesis 22:1

There are great truths hidden in the Bible but it is not a work to be read literally. It makes little sense literally.

The opening passages of Genesis for example are not talking about the creation of the universe.

 

[Daisies4me]

Really? Frankly, when read/taken literally it contains 100s (prob 1000s) of contradictions and mismatches. Hardly harmonious !

GE 4:9 God asks Cain where his brother Able is.
PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from his view.


"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." -- James 1:13
"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham..." -- Genesis 22:1

There are great truths hidden in the Bible but it is not a work to be read literally. It makes little sense literally.

The opening passages of Genesis for example are not talking about the creation of the universe.

(quote)
Hi Pilgrim
The Bible does not read as if it is a novel. And for every perceived contradiction, an explanation is available. However, suffice it to say, it is up to the sincere heart of the one doing the searching to find the harmony and balance therein.
And it is to no advantage to attempt to just give an answer to every claim that a person makes against God or the Bible. The pharisees and Sadducees and opposers in Bible times gave a good example of how Satan can attempt to make unbelievers try to set 'traps' , as they did for Jesus.
If you don't want to believe the Bible that is your choice. Everyone gets to choose. No one is trying to force you to believe. But rather than looking for points to try and create divisions, first show yourself to be one who is truly interested in the promises God has given us, and the prophecies, many of which have already been fulfilled, and the making of better persons due to following the instructions from God as evidences of the benefits that come from following the Bible.. the parables of Jesus show why things are not stated methodically and easily for his enemies to understand. To whom He want to, He gives it.

peace

 

[PilgrimOfLight]

(quote)
The Bible does not read as if it is a novel.

Indeed, nor imo should it be read as a novel or as a story or set of stories. It contains truth, but for most that is difficult to uncover because very few people are willing to be open and honest with the populous as to what those truths are. Instead the controlling world presents the false view of the Bible, insisting that people take it literally and conform to a set of behaviours. The vast majority will never come to know the secrets that are recorded in the Bible and indeed in most other mainstream religious tomes.

And for every perceived contradiction, an explanation is available. However, suffice it to say, it is up to the sincere heart of the one doing the searching to find the harmony and balance therein.

This doesn't for me cut the mustard. The Bible doesn't make sense, hold water or stand up to much scrutiny at all because we have been conditioned to accept it as an historical account of many people rather than approach it as something else. The contradictions and inaccuracies and seemingly senseless content is there because truths are encoded within the text. It's not a case of looking for explanations for the contradictions, it is more a case of understanding what the Bible is. One does not approach the Times Crossword as a thing to be read and understood. One approaches it as a cryptic puzzle, knowing that one or more people have hidden answers within it which you need to uncover. Only seeking thus will one find imo.

If you don't want to believe the Bible that is your choice. Everyone gets to choose. No one is trying to force you to believe.

It's not a case of believing or not imo. It's a case of seeing that there are truths hidden within. Sadly the vast majority of people actually do not get to choose. They are spoonfed how they should accept the Bible from a young age and that conditioning perpetuates right through adulthood. Shame on all the mainstream churches and religions for not showing people the great truths within.

 

[Daisies4me]

Indeed, nor imo should it be read as a novel or as a story or set of stories. It contains truth, but for most that is difficult to uncover because very few people are willing to be open and honest with the populous as to what those truths are. Instead the controlling world presents the false view of the Bible, insisting that people take it literally and conform to a set of behaviours. The vast majority will never come to know the secrets that are recorded in the Bible and indeed in most other mainstream religious tomes.



This doesn't for me cut the mustard. The Bible doesn't make sense, hold water or stand up to much scrutiny at all because we have been conditioned to accept it as an historical account of many people rather than approach it as something else. The contradictions and inaccuracies and seemingly senseless content is there because truths are encoded within the text. It's not a case of looking for explanations for the contradictions, it is more a case of understanding what the Bible is. One does not approach the Times Crossword as a thing to be read and understood. One approaches it as a cryptic puzzle, knowing that one or more people have hidden answers within it which you need to uncover. Only seeking thus will one find imo.



It's not a case of believing or not imo. It's a case of seeing that there are truths hidden within. Sadly the vast majority of people actually do not get to choose. They are spoonfed how they should accept the Bible from a young age and that conditioning perpetuates right through adulthood. Shame on all the mainstream churches and religions for not showing people the great truths within.

(quote)
Hi Pilgrim

I have to disagree with the point that it is not about believing.... faith is not a possession of all people, the Bible tells us at 2 Thess. 3:2 . Not everyone believes what is written in the Bible, and as you have stated, many 'theologians' deliberately mislead and confuse what is written therein. However to those of us who do put faith in the Bible as God's Inspired written Word for mankind, we agree with the scripture at Hebrews 12:2. We 'look intently', or focus our attention of the One God sent forth to teach mankind about Him, and follow the 'Chief Agent and Perfecter of our faith', Jesus, God's Anointed King. He is our Leader, and the rest of chapter 12 of Hebrews is pretty clear as to what people face while attempting to obey the commands of God in this world alienated from God at this time, until the Cleansing of the 'world' of mankind that follows Satan, and the abyssing of Satan and all of the demons who follow him, removing them and their ability to influence people, or affect the earth in any way. The entire earth will immediately feel the difference, when all Satanic influence is removed. Then everyone living can see clearly with their eyes of discernment, and make a decision according to their own heart's desires as to whom they will serve.
Without faith, it is impossible to serve Him well.
Hebrews 11:6.
Romans 10:14-15 brings out a very nice reasoning on the matter of how one can put faith in the True God.

Peace to you