NAACP issues travel advisory for Florida...

[Debater Slayer]

As long as the steps go in that order. History suggests that sometimes, it can be 3 back with only 2 forward. And I think I'm seeing some of that now. Things have changed, as the Pubs become more desperate.

Sadly, it seems that all it takes is one grossly partisan SCOTUS to upend decades of gains in civil rights and liberties.

 

[Revoltingest]

By the way, I don't consider affirmative action to necessarily be against individual rights when applied usefully, because, in that case, it tries to advance individual rights for the groups targeted by exclusion.

This reminds me of a discussion I once had with a cashier
at the People's Food Coop. She asked me if I were eligible
for a student discount. I said no, & I informed her that
under Ann Arbor's Human Rights Ordinance, discrimination
based upon educational affiliation in a public accommodation
is illegal. She responded with (as I recall)...
"It's OK to discriminate as long is it's for someone, & not
against them."
I didn't pursue her ignoring the fact that she was denying
me the student discount.

Discrimination in favor of one person always involves
discrimination against some other person. I oppose this.

 

[Revoltingest]

As long as the steps go in that order. History suggests that sometimes, it can be 3 back with only 2 forward. And I think I'm seeing some of that now. Things have changed, as the Pubs become more desperate.

Over your long long life, do you think
things were better when you were born?
Or better now?

You & I are old enuf to see SCOTUS justices
begin their reign, & retire. Many younger folk
only see the Catholicization of SCOTUS.
But we've seen that pendulum swing to & fro.

 

[Father Heathen]

I saw somewhere where a person said
“America seemed to be going forward. Then 9/11 happened and we threw all of that away out of shock and hurt.”

That stuck with me. But as I’m not American and barely old enough to remember a pre 9/11 world, I was curious if you think that thought process holds any weight?

Yeah, the cultural divide definitely began fomenting afterwards. Bush and his wars were definitely divisive. Patriotism was coopted by conservatives, and hero worship of military personnel went into full swing during this period as well.

 

[Debater Slayer]

This reminds me of a discussion I once had with a cashier
at the People's Food Coop. She asked me if I were eligible
for a student discount. I said no, & I informed her that
under Ann Arbor's Human Rights Ordinance, discrimination
based upon educational affiliation in a public accommodation
is illegal. She responded with (as I recall)...
"It's OK to discriminate as long is it's for someone, & not
against them."
I didn't pursue her ignoring the fact that she was denying
me the student discount.

Discrimination in favor of one person always involves
discrimination against some other person. I oppose this.

As tempting as it is to respond on this tangent, Rule 4 dictates that I don't.

We shall get into this in another thread someday.

 

[Stevicus]

I see a net positive since 1980.
Some encouraging factors....
- Gay marriage legal.

It probably would have been made legal sooner. I remember gay marriages from back in the 70s. They weren't legal or official, but they were becoming accepted - until 1980 and the rise of the moral majority which set things back decades.

- Affirmative action has been on the decline.
- Some states have been curbing cops' qualified immunity.
- Some states have been curbing civil forfeiture abuse.
- The right to record cops & other things in public.
- The advent of cel phones & the internet have enabled people to hold
cops accountable for crimes they previously got away with scot free.

Qualified immunity and civil forfeiture came about in the 1980s. We didn't have those things prior to 1980.

I'll grant that we have the right to record cops, although we've always had that. We just didn't have the technology.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Yeah, the cultural divide definitely began fomenting afterwards. Bush and his wars were definitely divisive. Patriotism was coopted by conservatives, and hero worship of military personnel went into full swing during this period as well.

Weren't there also a lot of opposition to and division because of the Vietnam War, especially the longer it went on? I feel like the US has been gradually cannibalizing itself for over 50 years; it's just that since 2001, its mismanagement and misguided policies have been increasingly visible on a domestic rather than just a foreign level.

 

[Revoltingest]

It probably would have been made legal sooner. I remember gay marriages from back in the 70s. They weren't legal or official, but they were becoming accepted - until 1980 and the rise of the moral majority which set things back decades.

It was up to SCOTUS, since the Clintons & Obama all opposed it.

Qualified immunity and civil forfeiture came about in the 1980s. We didn't have those things prior to 1980.

I'll grant that we have the right to record cops, although we've always had that. We just didn't have the technology.

Qualified immunity existed de facto (IMO) because
cops were even more rarely prosecuted for civil
rights violations back in the day. The Blue Wall
was even stronger then.
Civil forfeiture is older...

Civil forfeiture in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

On recording the cops, federal courts hadn't
recognized that until well after 1980.

Filming the Police

Federal appellate courts have ruled that people have a First Amendment right to film police interactions with citizens.

mtsu.edu

The fact that a major advance in civil rights & liberties
arrived because of technology doesn't exclude that
from my list of improvements since 1980.

You seem firmly wedded seeing Reagan as the
origin of Ameristan's plunge into the dark ages.

 

[Revoltingest]

As tempting as it is to respond on this tangent, Rule 4 dictates that I don't.

We shall get into this in another thread someday.

Makes sense.
@Evangelicalhumanist & I were addressing progress.
Your disagreement on what constitutes that is indeed
far off topic. I'd nothing to add anyway.

 

[SomeRandom]

Yeah, the cultural divide definitely began fomenting afterwards. Bush and his wars were definitely divisive. Patriotism was coopted by conservatives, and hero worship of military personnel went into full swing during this period as well.

Interesting

 

[TLK Valentine]

How is this a good thing? Isn't whether it's good or bad merely determined by whether affirmative action is needed? If it's no longer needed, great. If it's needed but has been on the decline, that's pretty bad.

Affirmative Action is well-intentioned, but IMO, is based on a flawed premise: That job applications, college admissions, etc., need to be based on a candidate's past. Truth is, it's their potential future that needs to be examined.

There's no point in admitting/hiring someone based on "Did this person have a rough time because of their race?" when the real issue is, "If we get this person out of that rough environment and bring them here, will they excel?" And the truth is, not everyone will. Fact is, the world's full of people of all backgrounds, races, etc... who just aren't going anywhere.

Just my $0.02

 

[Revoltingest]

Yeah, the cultural divide definitely began fomenting afterwards. Bush and his wars were definitely divisive.

Dems & Pubs gave the wars bi-partisan support.
And Dems rewarded Obama's pursuring the wars
with re-election
I say that the divide resulted from cultural & religious
differences, & the general increasing acceptance of
open hostility.

 

[Father Heathen]

Weren't there also a lot of opposition to and division because of the Vietnam War, especially the longer it went on? I feel like the US has been gradually cannibalizing itself for over 50 years; it's just that since 2001, its mismanagement and misguided policies have been increasingly visible on a domestic rather than just a foreign level.

There has always been varying levels of political divide, but it's definitely been more prominent the last decade or two. The internet undoubtedly has a lot to do with it, giving billions easy access to information and communication.

 

[Stevicus]

I saw somewhere where a person said
“America seemed to be going forward. Then 9/11 happened and we threw all of that away out of shock and hurt.”

That stuck with me. But as I’m not American and barely old enough to remember a pre 9/11 world, I was curious if you think that thought process holds any weight?

9/11 was definitely a watershed moment for America, although the circumstances leading up to 9/11 started probably around the time of the Iranian hostage crisis of 1979, which then led to Reagan's election. The post-Vietnam, post-Watergate era led to a certain anti-militaristic viewpoint, as well as one of greater tolerance, but once footage of Iranians burning our flag, saying "death to America," and leading blindfolded hostages out in front of angry mobs, any chance for a peaceful, tolerant America pretty much evaporated at that point.

Reagan also appealed to the so-called "moral majority," which was a reaction to various movements which came out of the 60s, believing that America was becoming too immoral and permissive. It should be noted that a lot of the leading Republicans up until that time were far more secular and felt that religious right was too radical. Even the grandfather of conservativism, Barry Goldwater, somewhat eschewed the religious right, although not so much as to abandon them entirely.

In the ensuing decades, there was a resurgence in American militarism which continued even after the end of the Cold War, which eventually triggered 9/11, which led to a doubling-down of the same process Reagan set in motion 20 years earlier.

 

[Revoltingest]

The internet undoubtedly has a lot to do with it, giving billions easy access to information and communication.

Worst of all, increased access to mis-information masquerading as cromulent info.

 

[Stevicus]

You seem firmly wedded seeing Reagan as the
origin of Ameristan's plunge into the dark ages.

Yes.

 

[Father Heathen]

Worst of all, increased access to mis-information masquerading as cromulent info.

Right, and echo chambers. And no matter how outrageous the opinion, you'll be able to find a community that will agree with and reinforce that opinion.

 

[Revoltingest]

It should be noted that a lot of the leading Republicans up until that time were far more secular and felt that religious right was too radical.

Boy, oh boy...do I remember it differently. Republicans
were never secular. The only change was increased overt
involvement of conservative religious figures, & appearing
to cater to them. Religion in government was even worse
pre-Reagan (in my experience).
We had public school teacher led Christian prayer & Bible
stories. We had politicians wanting to kill the "godless"
commies in the far east. Atheism was more hated then.
Things are better now for atheists.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Yes, it may be true that I am not American.

But please clarify for me -- is the NAACP not American? Do they have no insight at all into what it might be like to be a black person in America? Or are you the sole owner of that wisdom?

Or do you just reject them because they're the wrong color?

No. Black people are not in dire danger in Florida.

It's that simple.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes.

You should consider other malefactors,
eg, Eisenhower (1953 Iranian coup).
Johnson (Viet Nam war), bi-partisan
Congress authorizing the 2 big wars.