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Nationalism?
- Thread starter Quintessence
- Start date
Why?
Maponos
Welcome to the Opera
Why not?
I think I made my reasons fairly clear previously in this thread.
In a nutshell and as a reminder, I think it is a motivator based on entirely fictional premises and far too prone to misuse.
Maponos
Welcome to the Opera
Well, in that case, I gave my reasons why in my first post.
Honest question: how do you justify that?
Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
This is mostly to satisfy a curiosity of mine, but what do folks around here think about nationalism or patriotism? I've seen some views about this that rather perplex me, and I'd like to give them a space to express themselves. Also, putting this in a debate area because I don't mind if you all start going at it with each other.I don't have strong feelings about the idea one way or another - being an American simply isn't part of how I think of my identity, but nor would I balk at someone who considers themselves a patriot. What about you?
Depends...
Nationalism obviously can be a great power for good, if you belong to a great nation like America, or any nation which historically stands for and promotes freedom; economic, religious and political.
If you belong to a socialist state like NAZI Germany, USSR, communist China, North Korea, etc.. then obviously it's a force for evil
The proof as always is in the pudding, not academic theory
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Had it not been for nationalism, just think about how far we could have gotten had American and Soviet Russian scientists worked together? One their own they both achieved landmark advances, but together we may have had probes sending images of Pluto to us decades ago.
There is nothing remotely "obvious" about that. What are you comparing nationalism with? Non-existence?
Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
I take your point, but a man was put on the moon by 1969 - explicitly because of the space race with Russia right?
Yes, and that was a political move, motivated by the desire to show the world which system (Soviet Communism/Socialism or American Capitalism/Democracy) was superior. Once the goal was achieved, support in both nations (at least among the government officials) evaporated. Could the nations have done much more by working together? I think it's likely, but the political reality was that it could not have happened that way.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Yes, but it may have been sooner had the two nations worked together, and without doubt we would have gotten further.
And we could have instead focused on worthier things, so?
I think nationalism is just a nonsense modern social construct. Nation-states are abstract things without inherent meaning. I think it would be better if we just ditched the whole nation-state nonsense and went to a sort of localized non-racial neotribalism or living in interconnected communes. I certainly don't give a damn about America as a socio-political construct. It's so big that it's basically a bunch of different countries thrown together. The West Coast is really like another country to the Midwest, so too with the South, the Pacific Northwest, New England, the Southwest, Alaska, Hawaii, etc. Things are best when they're kept local in focus, yet with wider contact and perspective beyond that, imo. I have more in common with my fellow poor and working class black, white, African, Mexican, etc. people living in my neighborhood than I do with the rich idiots who up north here or the yuppie types living in expensive condos downtown or in the Short North. So what is the basis for some sort of greater nationalism, when we don't have much in common with each other even in the same cities?!
Why? "My people", as I define it, includes people from all over the world and excludes many of my fellow Americans. I think Americans are some of the dumbest people on the planet, in general. So why should I feel some special kinship with them over all others? I don't recall choosing to be born here. If I had a choice, in hindsight, I would not have chosen to be born in this ridiculous country.
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Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
one of humanity's greatest achievements....
And this was not achieved with the help of any sense of national pride?
Maponos
Welcome to the Opera
Well, my people are the Britons (those of the British Isles; technically the Gaels too), so put our wellbeing above all others. If I end up living in Japan like I hope to, then I would consider the Japanese as a sort of 'adopted' people and put Japan's wellbeing above others along with the Britons.
The majority may not deserve the support I may give them, but I have to remember that there are greater things at stake and that maybe things will get better.
Also, in my religious views and the culture that was built around it, to turn on your own kind is a kind of crime.
Well, I can certainly understand that point of view. Loyalty to loved ones, friends and community is important to an extent, but I just don't see how it necessarily has to do with the modern notion of nations. Are you referring to ethnic nationalism? I can understand that, as well, but I still feel that even that is rather arbitrary. Being a mixed-race American is probably a different experience from yours, since there is no overarching American monoculture and we're all mixed together. But, to an extent, the same has been true all over the world. The lines we draw aren't inherently meaningful and are constantly shifting.