NATO

[Spiderman]

I was praying for NATO today. They are an extremely powerful force.

Attack one Nato member and you attack them all.

Do you think Ukraine will become a member?

Map of NATO (quite an Empire):

 

[metis]

As a place to discuss.

 

[Phil25]

I was praying for NATO today. They are an extremely powerful force.

Attack one Nato member and you attack them all.

Do you think Ukraine will become a member?

Map of NATO (quite an Empire):

No, its an association of freeloaders. Only US, UK, Estonia, Poland and Greece spend the recommended 2% on defense.

 

[Onyx]

No, its an association of freeloaders. Only US, UK, Estonia, Poland and Greece spend the recommended 2% on defense.

I think it's more complicated then that.

 

[Phil25]

I think it's more complicated then that.

Explain

 

[Onyx]

Explain

The money matters much less than the alliances. The alliances give us more excuses to carry out the ultimate sin when push comes to shove.

The NATO rent doesn't matter at all. We already have the weapons.

 

[Nietzsche]

No, its an association of freeloaders. Only US, UK, Estonia, Poland and Greece spend the recommended 2% on defense.

There is more to NATO than simply who gives how much. Germany makes up for their comparative lack of expenditure into NATO proper(and for the record they give 1.18 while France gives 1.8) by acting as a staging ground for NATO as a whole and more specifically American, forces as well as producing the over-whelming majority of the heavy equipment(specifically artillery & tank barrels).

Turkey on the other hand possesses the second-largest army in NATO(three guesses as to who's first).

Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of world history since the 40s clearly realizes that NATO and the United Nations are the reasons we haven't experienced another sequel to the Great War.

 

[Neo Deist]

Turkey on the other hand possesses the second-largest army in NATO(three guesses as to who's first).

Iceland!

 

[Spiderman]

Who was the joker that let Greenland join?

Anyhow, NATO saved us from World War 3 and a communist takeover of Europe, and for that reason alone deserves our adoration and praise!

 

[Nietzsche]

Who was the joker that let Greenland join?

Anyhow, NATO saved us from World War 3 and a communist takeover of Europe, and for that reason alone deserves our adoration and praise!

Literally a five-second Google search would've told you that it's a member because it's a dependency of Denmark, one of the founders of NATO.

 

[Phil25]

There is more to NATO than simply who gives how much. Germany makes up for their comparative lack of expenditure into NATO proper(and for the record they give 1.18 while France gives 1.8) by acting as a staging ground for NATO as a whole and more specifically American, forces

Staging ground for pointless American led wars that most European nations did not want.

As well as producing the over-whelming majority of the heavy equipment(specifically artillery & tank barrels).

So? This is not an argument for NATO. They are not giving us these weapons for free. They would still be making and selling this weapons with or without NATO.

Turkey on the other hand possesses the second-largest army in NATO(three guesses as to who's first).

Nowadays, Turkey is an ally of Russia and not US.

Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of world history since the 40s clearly realizes that NATO and the United Nations are the reasons we haven't experienced another sequel to the Great War.

The reason for that is nuclear weapons and MAD(Mutually Assured Destruction) and not NATO. But I would grant you that
NATO served it's purpose during the European reconstruction when European nations were too weak to defend itself. At a stretch, I would say NATO was useful till the dissolution of USSR. Since then NATO has to search for conflicts such as Libya to justify it's existence.

 

[Nietzsche]

Staging ground for pointless American led wars that most European nations did not want.

The United States has made many a mistake. But the only conflict that really rankled with Europe was the Second Gulf War(and rightly so), and guess what? Most of them decided not to participate. And I would not dare call the intervention in former Yugoslavia to be "pointless".

So? This is not an argument for NATO. They are not giving us these weapons for free. They would still be making and selling this weapons with or without NATO.

...Do you know how interwoven American, German, French and British weapons development programs are? They're all funded and organized through NATO. There is a reason that modern western Main Battle Tanks(M1A1/M1A2 Abrams, Leopards I and II, Challenger I & II, the Leclerc, Ariete and so on) are so similar, and it's because of the weapons development coordination that an organization like NATO provides. NATO is more than just a system of alliances.

Nowadays, Turkey is an ally of Russia and not US.

That is extremely recently. As in, no more than five-years recent.

The reason for that is nuclear weapons and MAD(Mutually Assured Destruction) and not NATO. But I would grant you that
NATO served it's purpose during the European reconstruction when European nations were too weak to defend itself. At a stretch, I would say NATO was useful till the dissolution of USSR. Since then NATO has to search for conflicts such as Libya to justify it's existence.

Nuclear Weapons were not always the reach-out-and-touch-you-anywhere devices they are now. Without those bases in Europe, America's nuclear strike capability would've been laughable. NATO was also instrumental in warming relations between France &Germany, Greece & Turkey, so on and so forth.

And, through its actual military alliance channels, it has allowed smaller states to cut military spending so they can put that money to use else where. Why? Because if one member of NATO is attacked, all other members respond in kind.

NATO has been a net-gain for the world, despite its flaws. Scrapping it would be foolish, because it would only serve to isolate and alienate countries.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Turkey on the other hand possesses the second-largest army in NATO(three guesses as to who's first).

China!

 

[Nietzsche]

China!

Don't you mean 'Jina'?

 

[Phil25]

The United States has made many a mistake.

Mostly mistakes

But the only conflict that really rankled with Europe was the Second Gulf War(and rightly so), and guess what?

A lot of smaller European nations were forced to join to the war by US.

They're all funded and organized through NATO.

Source?

There is a reason that modern western Main Battle Tanks(M1A1/M1A2 Abrams, Leopards I and II, Challenger I & II, the Leclerc, Ariete and so on) are so similar, and it's because of the weapons development coordination that an organization like NATO provides. NATO is more than just a system of alliances.

Again even if this is true, none of this justifies the abysmal level of military spending by European nations. Especially countries like Germany which have been running budget surplus for many years. Surely they can spend a bit more on defense? Obama had been saying this for years but no European nation took it seriously until now when, Trump threatened to leave NATO.

Nuclear Weapons were not always the reach-out-and-touch-you-anywhere devices they are now. Without those bases in Europe, America's nuclear strike capability would've been laughable. NATO was also instrumental in warming relations between France &Germany, Greece & Turkey, so on and so forth.

I was not arguing about the usefulness of NATO in the 50s during the period of European reconstruction. And the reason for warming of relations between France and Germany etc. was due to predecessors of European Union and not NATO.

NATO has been a net-gain for the world, despite its flaws. Scrapping it would be foolish, because it would only serve to isolate and alienate countries.

Sweden, Japan, South Korea, Australia, Singapore etc. aren't part of NATO or any similar military organization. And they don't feel isolated or alienated and they have strong relations with US.