Near Death Experiences and Religion

[Lekatt]

My view (currently) is that whatever we do in love is lasting but that we ourselves are not.

I am curious about where one can read thousands of NDE stories?


What of the pagan explanations of the afterlife? Of the Egyptian explanation, the Roman, the Norse, etc which ones are most consistent with what you have read about NDE's? Should they be considered as evidence for or against a loving afterlife?


That is to me a whole different question from whether there is an afterlife -- whether God is only unconditional love. Its fair to say that love is one area in which we (minimally loving animals that kill or destroy to eat) encounter or overlap with God, but love is only a tiny part of us. Mostly we are not loving creatures but are mere creatures who are often not loving. If love is what matters to God then we mostly do not matter. If God is love then where in the afterlife do minimally loving creatures like ourselves belong?

In I John a book in the NT love is the path to becoming children of God. A lot of people read in the NT "God is love" and think its a definition. Actually in that book God is not definable, so there is a different implied meaning for 'God is love'. There are some theological problems with defining God as anything even as love. For a human "God is love" in the NT should be taken as a command to let love be the judge and to forgive others and one's self. Its a command written with a figure of speech. It is not easy to explain why its a command and not a definition, but just for sake of conversation its what I think causes many to mistakenly think God exists as pure love only, as if God could be defined and understood. Its a nice thing to say but ignores the fact that words fail when it comes to God. Saying this to me is very confusing and detracts from the question of the nature of the afterlife.

My view (currently) is that whatever we do in love is lasting but that we ourselves are not.

I am curious about where one can read thousands of NDE stories?


What of the pagan explanations of the afterlife? Of the Egyptian explanation, the Roman, the Norse, etc which ones are most consistent with what you have read about NDE's? Should they be considered as evidence for or against a loving afterlife?


That is to me a whole different question from whether there is an afterlife -- whether God is only unconditional love. Its fair to say that love is one area in which we (minimally loving animals that kill or destroy to eat) encounter or overlap with God, but love is only a tiny part of us. Mostly we are not loving creatures but are mere creatures who are often not loving. If love is what matters to God then we mostly do not matter. If God is love then where in the afterlife do minimally loving creatures like ourselves belong?

In I John a book in the NT love is the path to becoming children of God. A lot of people read in the NT "God is love" and think its a definition. Actually in that book God is not definable, so there is a different implied meaning for 'God is love'. There are some theological problems with defining God as anything even as love. For a human "God is love" in the NT should be taken as a command to let love be the judge and to forgive others and one's self. Its a command written with a figure of speech. It is not easy to explain why its a command and not a definition, but just for sake of conversation its what I think causes many to mistakenly think God exists as pure love only, as if God could be defined and understood. Its a nice thing to say but ignores the fact that words fail when it comes to God. Saying this to me is very confusing and detracts from the question of the nature of the afterlife.

Let me answer this better.
What we do in love does last, I agree. It is estimated that over 10 million Americans have experienced an NDE. There are many web sites devoted to these experiences on the net. Mine has over 300 of them. So it is not hard to find thousands of them.

The Pagan, Egyptian and other explanations of the afterlife are the product of organizations, cults, churches and other groups of people defining an afterlife. NDEs come from individuals that don't know each other, that may come from different countries, societies, or cultures, yet exhibit certain similar events like feelings of love, bright lights, and other events that form a pattern of an afterlife.

We are loving creatures, then we come into the physical and go into survival mode. We come here to learn about ourselves and others in a not-love environment. This is sort of an accelerated school of learning spiritual growth. Many NDE experiencers believe God is the light that surrounds them with love and not a person. Some say God is the sum total of all existence while others believe He is the Creative Force behind everything. I believe God is unconditional love and not a person. A few experiencers believe God is a person. There is so much more information.

Some experiencers have asked about the Bible and were told the only thing important was the love chapter. Others were told the teachings of Jesus:
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."

I have come to understand this passage as the path to spiritual growth. As I tried to follow it became more understandable and important to me. I know it is confusing and difficult.

Over the years I come to believe in myself more and grow spiritually. It would take a book to tell you some of the things I have learned and how beautiful and yet logical it all is. I wrote a poem about God that describes His love.

Rescued

I was hopeless, and could not be seen,
darkness swirled in shades of midnight green,
shattered, unable to make a sound,
I lay broken on the cold dark ground.

Someone had taught me all about you,
but I never really thought it true.
I was just too busy to believe,
to hurried to ask for a reprieve.

Then heard a soft voice, in kind words say,
“may I offer you my hand today.”
A lucent hand reached down for mine,
painfully I raised my hand to thine.

On the touch, a rush of healing light,
flowed through my body, lighting up the night.
Waves of brilliance covered my tortured soul
His compassionate love making me whole.

I am sorry about my first post, so I tried to do better. Love

 

[SkepticThinker]

I don't know if I can convince you of an assured afterlife that is pleasant, but I will try. After reading literally thousands of NDEs over more than 30 years, this is what I found as the norm. Most have pleasant experiences. They feel loved and cared for by the light that surrounds them and the spirits they meet. A few people do have negative experiences of monsters, demons, and even the fires of hell. These negative experiences are brought on by a huge fear of death, and possibly some religious preaching. I have noticed that many of these negative experiencers are preachers. But as soon as the person having the negative experience calls out for help from God, Jesus, or anyone, they are pulled out of the negative experience into the light. There they are surrounded by love and light. Fear is not good for anyone.

Next, if you have a long experience you will go through a life review. Here all the bad and good things you did while in the physical will be revealed. Now, if you have been bad, that review might be painful for you to watch from a position of unconditional love. Dannion Brinkley was an assassin in life and he said his life review was very painful. But he got to the light and now heads an org called "Compassion In Action." Brinkley worked for the CIA in life.

You and only you are the judge of your life, you and only you punish yourself. God is only unconditional love. That is why treating others with kindness and care is important, because how you treat others is how you treat yourself. You create your own future. There is a writing I got from a spirit, when I find it I will post it for all to read. I hope this helps some it is only a quick picture of the afterlife.

What of these then? (Posted by another Poster)
Distressing Near-Death Experiences: The Basics

 

[Lekatt]

What of these then? (Posted by another Poster)
Distressing Near-Death Experiences: The Basics

Yes, there are negative NDEs. Depending on who you listen to about 15% of NDEs are negative. People experience being in dark places, some experience being in dead places, some see monsters, and some experience demons, devils, and the fires of hell. But when they call out for help, they are taken to the light. You will experience your most intense emotions in the experience. Your fear will keep you from the light. I will try to find more on this.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yes, there are negative NDEs. Depending on who you listen to about 15% of NDEs are negative. People experience being in dark places, some experience being in dead places, some see monsters, and some experience demons, devils, and the fires of hell. But when they call out for help, they are taken to the light. You will experience your most intense emotions in the experience. Your fear will keep you from the light. I will try to find more on this.

You just went on at length about how NDEs are so good and pleasant and loving, etc.
Once again, when evidence is presented that contradicts your claims, you just brush it off. That's called confirmation bias. Just like the example with my grandfather where he experienced nothing when he died on the operating table.

 

[Lekatt]

You just went on at length about how NDEs are so good and pleasant and loving, etc.
Once again, when evidence is presented that contradicts your claims, you just brush it off. That's called confirmation bias. Just like the example with my grandfather where he experienced nothing when he died on the operating table.

I explained how negative NDEs turn into positive ones.


"Science needs to enlarge itself and grow up
and include the phenomena that right now
are being ignored."
Claude Swanson Ph.D.

 

[gnostic]

I explained how negative NDEs turn into positive ones.


"Science needs to enlarge itself and grow up
and include the phenomena that right now
are being ignored."
Claude Swanson Ph.D.

I don’t know who this Swanson is or was, but science have expanded and “grow up”.

That have not happened in religions, especially not those who believe in the make-believe fantasy of the spirits or the soul.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I explained how negative NDEs turn into positive ones.


"Science needs to enlarge itself and grow up
and include the phenomena that right now
are being ignored."
Claude Swanson Ph.D.

You just made it up though, apparently, without reading the article.

Stop impugning science for not accepting every unevidenced claim thrown around by every Tom, Dick and Harry on the planet. Learn what evidence is, and then demonstrate the veracity of your claims, if you want to be taken seriously. Right now you have an hypothesis without definitions of your terms and which is lacking in explanatory power.

 

[Lekatt]

You just made it up though, apparently, without reading the article.

Stop impugning science for not accepting every unevidenced claim thrown around by every Tom, Dick and Harry on the planet. Learn what evidence is, and then demonstrate the veracity of your claims, if you want to be taken seriously. Right now you have an hypothesis without definitions of your terms and which is lacking in explanatory power.

I have provided clear evidence of an afterlife. If you don't want to believe it. OK.

 

[Lekatt]

I don’t know who this Swanson is or was, but science have expanded and “grow up”.

That have not happened in religions, especially not those who believe in the make-believe fantasy of the spirits or the soul.

I agree, but we are no talking about religion, we are discussing life after death which is a reality.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I have provided clear evidence of an afterlife. If you don't want to believe it. OK.

If that's what you think you've done here, then I'm sorry to have to inform you, but you do not know what evidence is.

 

[Lekatt]

If that's what you think you've done here, then I'm sorry to have to inform you, but you do not know what evidence is.

I will let that pass.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I will let that pass.

I won't.
Please provide some evidence backing up your claims about disembodied minds.

 

[joelr]

Let me answer this better.
What we do in love does last, I agree. It is estimated that over 10 million Americans have experienced an NDE. There are many web sites devoted to these experiences on the net. Mine has over 300 of them. So it is not hard to find thousands of them.

The Pagan, Egyptian and other explanations of the afterlife are the product of organizations, cults, churches and other groups of people defining an afterlife. NDEs come from individuals that don't know each other, that may come from different countries, societies, or cultures, yet exhibit certain similar events like feelings of love, bright lights, and other events that form a pattern of an afterlife.

We are loving creatures, then we come into the physical and go into survival mode. We come here to learn about ourselves and others in a not-love environment. This is sort of an accelerated school of learning spiritual growth. Many NDE experiencers believe God is the light that surrounds them with love and not a person. Some say God is the sum total of all existence while others believe He is the Creative Force behind everything. I believe God is unconditional love and not a person. A few experiencers believe God is a person. There is so much more information.

Some experiencers have asked about the Bible and were told the only thing important was the love chapter. Others were told the teachings of Jesus:
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."

I have come to understand this passage as the path to spiritual growth. As I tried to follow it became more understandable and important to me. I know it is confusing and difficult.

Over the years I come to believe in myself more and grow spiritually. It would take a book to tell you some of the things I have learned and how beautiful and yet logical it all is. I wrote a poem about God that describes His love.

Rescued

I was hopeless, and could not be seen,
darkness swirled in shades of midnight green,
shattered, unable to make a sound,
I lay broken on the cold dark ground.

Someone had taught me all about you,
but I never really thought it true.
I was just too busy to believe,
to hurried to ask for a reprieve.

Then heard a soft voice, in kind words say,
“may I offer you my hand today.”
A lucent hand reached down for mine,
painfully I raised my hand to thine.

On the touch, a rush of healing light,
flowed through my body, lighting up the night.
Waves of brilliance covered my tortured soul
His compassionate love making me whole.

I am sorry about my first post, so I tried to do better. Love

What is the "love chapter"?
It's impossible to say how many of the message board stories are made up? Is there one example, ever of someone coming back with information about science, the universe or anything that can be verified and forwards our knowledge of the universe? Does no one ever ask "how can we cure cancer"?

 

[Lekatt]

1 Corinthians 13: The Bible's "Love Chapter"

I have no idea why one would make up a NDE. On rare occasions I have run across someone who seems to have an experience that does not follow the norm for them. These experiences are neither about science or religion. They are some that have been verified by medical staff present at the time.

Generally people who have the experience change their whole lifestyle and outlook on physical life. Very few have been unsure about what the experience told them. If you have not had the experience it is easy to understand the reluctance to accept it as real. But if one is skeptical I don't believe there would be any verification or evidence to change their mind.

If one really makes an effort to learn about the anomalies of Savants, Conjoined Twins, Identical twins, people who remember their past lives, Near Death Experiencers, People who remember coming into the physical, and any others I have not mentioned I do not see how they could still believe the brain is the creator of the person.

I like this video because it is typical of what happens when a science person has a NDE.

 

[Shadow11]

The part that gets me is the people they meet friends , relatives they have never met or knew of are all dead people. Show me an NDE that has living people greeting the person whos having the NDE. They may see living people in an out of body experience but they don't communicate with them such as doctors and nurses trying to revive the person. It all dead people greeting and talking to the person having the NDE.

 

[Lekatt]

The part that gets me is the people they meet friends , relatives they have never met or knew of are all dead people. Show me an NDE that has living people greeting the person whos having the NDE. They may see living people in an out of body experience but they don't communicate with them such as doctors and nurses trying to revive the person. It all dead people greeting and talking to the person having the NDE.

That is entirely logical. A spirit without a body can not communicate with a body. No eyes, ears, or mouth. A spirit can communicate with another spirit, which means if the person knew this and the other person was open to it, some communication could take place. People newly out of body would not have that knowledge. So there is no communications between NDE spirits and people in bodies.

I am a spiritual person and know about spiritual communication. On occasion I have experienced it. My father-in-law Hermon had a stroke and was not expected to live. He was in a coma. I had been by his bed for over 24 hours when my wife came to relieve me. I went home and crashed on the couch. Around mid-nite I heard a voice calling my name. I raised up to look around and my name was called again, then I heard "it is time to go back to the hospital.' It was Herman's voice clear in my mind. I got up and started to put on my shoes when the phone rang. My wife told me Herman had just passed. It was clearly his voice, something I will never forget.

There are real psychics that can tune in on some spirits. But for every real one there are a hundred fakes. I made a long study of psychic phenomenon and found only three people who could be call psychic out of dozens I had readings from. I do not recommend anyone to try to communicate with the aid of someone who can do it and knows how. Not all spirits are kind. There is a saying: "Just because they are dead don't make them smart."

 

[SkepticThinker]

1 Corinthians 13: The Bible's "Love Chapter"

I have no idea why one would make up a NDE. On rare occasions I have run across someone who seems to have an experience that does not follow the norm for them. These experiences are neither about science or religion. They are some that have been verified by medical staff present at the time.

Generally people who have the experience change their whole lifestyle and outlook on physical life. Very few have been unsure about what the experience told them. If you have not had the experience it is easy to understand the reluctance to accept it as real. But if one is skeptical I don't believe there would be any verification or evidence to change their mind.

If one really makes an effort to learn about the anomalies of Savants, Conjoined Twins, Identical twins, people who remember their past lives, Near Death Experiencers, People who remember coming into the physical, and any others I have not mentioned I do not see how they could still believe the brain is the creator of the person.

I like this video because it is typical of what happens when a science person has a NDE.

One of your big problems is that you ignore all the evidence that shows that our minds are products of our physical brains. You just flat out ignore it, while cherry picking the data that confirms what you already believe. That is just confirmation bias.

What are you trying to say about identical twins and why are they lumped in with people who "remember their past lives?"

 

[SkepticThinker]

That is entirely logical. A spirit without a body can not communicate with a body. No eyes, ears, or mouth. A spirit can communicate with another spirit, which means if the person knew this and the other person was open to it, some communication could take place. People newly out of body would not have that knowledge. So there is no communications between NDE spirits and people in bodies.

Nothing that you're doing here is logical. Quite the opposite, in fact - your posts are riddled with logical fallacies.

I am a spiritual person and know about spiritual communication.

Then why can't you demonstrate it to anyone else?

On occasion I have experienced it. My father-in-law Hermon had a stroke and was not expected to live. He was in a coma. I had been by his bed for over 24 hours when my wife came to relieve me. I went home and crashed on the couch. Around mid-nite I heard a voice calling my name. I raised up to look around and my name was called again, then I heard "it is time to go back to the hospital.' It was Herman's voice clear in my mind. I got up and started to put on my shoes when the phone rang. My wife told me Herman had just passed. It was clearly his voice, something I will never forget.

Sorry but I find this story to be wholly unremarkable. You had a dream about a guy who "was not expected to live" where you heard his voice tell you to "it is time to go back to the hospital?" Why do you imagine this could have only come from a spirit and not from your own mind that was told this man was "not expected to live?"

There are real psychics that can tune in on some spirits. But for every real one there are a hundred fakes. I made a long study of psychic phenomenon and found only three people who could be call psychic out of dozens I had readings from. I do not recommend anyone to try to communicate with the aid of someone who can do it and knows how. Not all spirits are kind. There is a saying: "Just because they are dead don't make them smart."

You've never demonstrated that spirits even exist in the first place and now you're attributing all kinds of characteristics to them that you also can't demonstrate.
In other words, you're just making stuff up.
Good thing this isn't how science is done.

 

[Lekatt]

Nothing that you're doing here is logical. Quite the opposite, in fact - your posts are riddled with logical fallacies.


Then why can't you demonstrate it to anyone else?


Sorry but I find this story to be wholly unremarkable. You had a dream about a guy who "was not expected to live" where you heard his voice tell you to "it is time to go back to the hospital?" Why do you imagine this could have only come from a spirit and not from your own mind that was told this man was "not expected to live?"


You've never demonstrated that spirits even exist in the first place and now you're attributing all kinds of characteristics to them that you also can't demonstrate.
In other words, you're just making stuff up.
Good thing this isn't how science is done.

You change what I write to suit your need to believe in science. It is OK. You don't have to be that frightened of spiritual things, there is no hell, judgment, or punishments doled out to the unbelievers. God loves and cares for them just as He does the faithful.

 

[gnostic]

I agree, but we are no talking about religion, we are discussing life after death which is a reality.

Then why add religion in the thread subject - “Near Death Experiences and Religion”?