Near Death experiences and the scientific method.

[Ben Dhyan]

This is just babble.
A belief is a claim that is not supported by evidence. You have no evidence to support your claim, only your own belief that it is true, which rests on nothing n=more than your belief that it is true. Classic circular logic.

I know what I know, it is who I am, I express it always, Unlike some, they need evidence from an outside source to tell them what is true and what is not. Sad...

 

[Ben Dhyan]

No idea what you are on about here.
Are you really claiming that our imagination isn't part of what we are aware of?

Yes, imagination is not the same thing as awareness, do you have a dictionary?

 

[KWED]

I don't do belief, why are you so fixated on the idea that belief is somehow important when it comes to trying to understand reality?

But you are making claims that things exist that there is no verifiable evidence for. You can't simply insist that whatever you believe is therefore part of reality.
Belief plays no part in actually determining the nature of reality - which is why your belief-based claims are meaningless in this respect.

Imagine someone was telling you that unicorns actually exist but can only be seen by people who have understanding of them. They insist that this is not a belief but reality, and the evidence they present you was their own certainty that what they are telling you is true, because they have knowledge of them through experience.
Do you now accept that these invisible unicorns are real? If you can't see them, is it because you aren't worth or humble enough?
When they keep repeating "but it's not a belief, it's reality!", do you accept that it is reality and not merely belief, despite the lack of evidence and the fallacious arguments?

Of course you don't. You dismiss their claims as delusional beliefs.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

But you are making claims that things exist that there is no verifiable evidence for. You can't simply insist that whatever you believe is therefore part of reality.
Belief plays no part in actually determining the nature of reality - which is why your belief-based claims are meaningless in this respect.

Imagine someone was telling you that unicorns actually exist but can only be seen by people who have understanding of them. They insist that this is not a belief but reality, and the evidence they present you was their own certainty that what they are telling you is true, because they have knowledge of them through experience.
Do you now accept that these invisible unicorns are real? If you can't see them, is it because you aren't worth or humble enough?
When they keep repeating "but it's not a belief, it's reality!", do you accept that it is reality and not merely belief, despite the lack of evidence and the fallacious arguments?

Of course you don't. You dismiss their claims as delusional beliefs.

So what claim is it specifically that you believe I am making that you believe is a belief?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

But everything you say shows clearly that your position is entirely based on belief.
Yes, I understand that you think that it isn't, but then, all delusional people think their delusion is real. Why are you any different?
"But I know it is real!"
And they all say the same thing.

So apparently in your mind, no claims by anyone ever will ever be accepted until they are verified by some acceptable authority. As they say, small world!

 

[Aupmanyav]

So apparently in your mind, no claims by anyone ever will ever be accepted until they are verified by some acceptable authority. As they say, small world!

Get the verification done by science. There are millions of learned scientists with millions of methods to check claims. Give your evidence to them (if you have any).

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Get the verification done by science. There are millions of learned scientists with millions of methods to check claims. Give your evidence to them (if you have any).

If I was in need or cared about verification from some part of a bee hive as to my reality, then I would be just another atheist bee in the hive.

The world continues its rotation, it is my turn to say good night, please keep the world going whilst I'm gone.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Your problem is that there is nothing to be verified. But your belief is your prerogative.

 

[KWED]

So put your money where your mouth is, find an atheist on this forum who is prepared to argue that they believe in spiritual knowledge. Have them make there claim here on this thread!

Seriously, what are you on about? I provided clear evidence of atheists who believe in the spiritual.

"There are no black swans on this river, therefore there are no black swans".

You really have no idea how this stuff works, do you?

 

[KWED]

What argument, what refutes Christianity?

You claimed that all religions are essentially true in their claims about higher powers, meaning, morality etc.
If that is the case, Christianity can't be true because it claims that there is only one version of god and one set of valid truths and only one route to spiritual salvation.

 

[KWED]

I know what I know, it is who I am, I express it always, Unlike some, they need evidence from an outside source to tell them what is true and what is not. Sad...

So you admit that you value your own opinion over evidence when assessing what is real or true, what you "know".
TBH, I think we'd already gathered that.

 

[KWED]

Yes, imagination is not the same thing as awareness,

Straw man. I never made that claim.
I said that imagination contributes to awareness. Do you dispute that?

do you have a dictionary?

Imagination - The faculty or action of forming new ideas
Awareness - Knowledge or perception of a situation or fact

How can you think that the former does not contribute to the latter?

 

[KWED]

So what claim is it specifically that you believe I am making that you believe is a belief?

That there is a "spiritual world", that something described as "god" exists", that consciousness is independent of the physical brain, that everything you experience is necessarily real, basically all of them. Take your pick.

 

[tas8831]

Oh dear.
The problem with this argument has been explained in detail. Yet you are still using it. Whether this is through dishonesty or a genuine inability to understand simple concepts is yet to be determined..

I'm going with option 2 - same history when discussing population genetics.

 

[KWED]

So apparently in your mind, no claims by anyone ever will ever be accepted until they are verified by some acceptable authority. As they say, small world!

Any extraordinary claim that can not be assumed to be valid through past evidential experience - yes. Those require something more than mere assertion.
Why would you just accept anything anyone ever tells you? That would be insane!

If someone says "I went to the pub last night" or "the boss wants to see you" and the like, we do not need specific evidence because they are reasonable claims that we have existing valid evidence for.
If someone says "I won a million on the lottery last night" or "I shagged Beyoncé on JayZ's yacht", I would be sceptical and demand evidence, even though I know those events actually happen to some people.
So, if someone says "I woke up with superpowers and stopped an earthquake", I would require some very convincing, hard evidence. Them just saying "But it actually happened. I remember it!" is obviously not sufficient.

This really isn't a difficult concept to grasp.

 

[KWED]

If I was in need or cared about verification from some part of a bee hive as to my reality, then I would be just another atheist bee in the hive.
The world continues its rotation, it is my turn to say good night, please keep the world going whilst I'm gone.

Why do you believe the world rotates? How do you know about that? Did the spirits tell you?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Sadly if a person has not had a spiritual experience, then they just possibly can't know, at least yet. But that does not mean it does not exist, it just means that they are not sufficiently evolved, their spiritual faculty has not yet been opened. Fwiw, it will not be opened until appropriate spiritual practice is introduced into their life.

"Knock and the door will be opened, ask and you will receive".

What is a "spiritual experience?"

 

[Subduction Zone]

Haha...

No, I am serious. When a person bases their life on some supposed event but then refuses to test it properly that indicates that deep down inside that they know it was a false event. You appear to be misinterpreting some sort of hallucination.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I see your problem, the God you seek is not separate from you, It is your source which means that you are the expression of. The potential is there to be a more perfect expression of, or a less, but being an atheist does not mean you are still not an expression of God. Denying that there is a higher source of you, that you are just a 'stand alone' mortal ego self identified with the body does not make it true. And I grant you just believing there is a higher source also does not make it true, but realizing it through some efficacious spiritual practice does.

Concerning "Nobody appears to beat home", it is true the path is difficult and long, it may take years of daily meditation to get to the next step. That step when it comes will remove all doubts, but the path still will be difficult. Religious practice of which I speak is not about gaining something, it is about learning and realizing the full potential of what and who you really are.

I'm sorry but this just sounds like a bunch of woo-woo to me.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Ok, simply to be in a coma and/or on life support, say for a day or more. Have you had this type of near death experience and had awareness?

My grandfather went through this. He told me that it was just like being asleep. He didn't see any dead loved ones or tunnels or anything at all.
How do you guys incorporate experiences like these into your belief system?