Near Death experiences and the scientific method.

[Ben Dhyan]

That is always the case, for any and all claims.

Lack of objective evidence for bigfoot does not confirm the absence of bigfoot.
Lack of objective evidence for alien abduction does not confirm the absence of alien abduction.
Lack of objective evidence for pots of gold at the foot of a rainbow stashed there by leprechauns does not confirm the absence thereof.

But it DOES confirm that there is no reason to believe the claim.
This is why the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

Made up claims not relevant to this discussion seems to be a diversion tactic. What about NDEs, have you experience one? If not, whatever you say is merely your reactive belief as an atheist.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I am what I am, if I'm happy I'm happy!

I speak the truth in the context of reality as I see it.

Considering reality as not being real is a rejection of reality.

You didn't watch the clip, did you?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Alien abductees also truly believe they were abducted and probed by aliens. To the point that they'll pass any lie detector test.

So what?

The psychiatric ward of hospitals are filled with people who truly believe the bizar claims they make.
People "truly believing" their claims is only evidence of them "truly believing" their claims. It is not evidence of their claims being true. Or even plausible.



You can say the exact same thing to people who have not experienced seeing bigfoot, being abducted by aliens, having experienced being the reincarnation of Elvis or Napoleon, etc etc etc etc etc.



Like the thousands of other people who believe they have seen bigfoot or were abducted by aliens?

I find it funny how you apparently think that believing a claim is the same as having evidence of said claim.
"my evidence for my claim is that I believe it" - that's in a nutshell what you are saying here.

You believe in atheism, what objective evidence do you have that atheism is true?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You didn't watch the clip, did you?

I did, woke stuff!

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Made up claims not relevant to this discussion seems to be a diversion tactic.

What made up claims?
I'm directly addressing what you said: that not having objective evidence for a claim doesn't mean the claim is false.
I agreed with you and gave a few examples.

What's the problem?

What about NDEs, have you experience one? If not, whatever you say is merely your reactive belief as an atheist.

Have you experienced alien abduction? If not, whatever you say is merely your reactive belief as an a-alien-abductee.

It sounds like you wish to have your religiously based NDE claims in some kind of priviliged position.
Sorry, but that's just special pleading and a double standard on your part.

Baseless claims are baseless claims. No matter how much or how many people believe said claims.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You didn't watch the clip, did you?

Well, I haven't be able to live my life based only on objective evidence alone, but I am not also able to do without it. For some cases, I am just subjective, but I try not to overlook the objective parts of the everyday world.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You believe in atheism, what objective evidence do you have that atheism is true?

Atheism is not a claim. It can't be true or false.
One does not "believe in" atheism. There's nothing there to believe.

Theism is the thing that can be believed.
Atheism is what we call it when one doesn't believe the claims of theism.

Theists are the ones who are trying to sell something.
One is an atheist when one isn't buying what theists are selling.
Atheists aren't trying to sell something else.

Sorry if you can't comprehend that.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

What made up claims?
I'm directly addressing what you said: that not having objective evidence for a claim doesn't mean the claim is false.
I agreed with you and gave a few examples.

What's the problem?



Have you experienced alien abduction? If not, whatever you say is merely your reactive belief as an a-alien-abductee.

It sounds like you wish to have your religiously based NDE claims in some kind of priviliged position.
Sorry, but that's just special pleading and a double standard on your part.

Baseless claims are baseless claims. No matter how much or how many people believe said claims.

Disbelief is not proof, what objective evidence do you have to prove aliens do not exist?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I did, woke stuff!

Ok, so you didn't watch the clip.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Atheism is not a claim. It can't be true or false.
One does not "believe in" atheism. There's nothing there to believe.

Theism is the thing that can be believed.
Atheism is what we call it when one doesn't believe the claims of theism.

Theists are the ones who are trying to sell something.
One is an atheist when one isn't buying what theists are selling.
Atheists aren't trying to sell something else.

Sorry if you can't comprehend that.

Sure it is a claim, a claim that there is no God!

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Ok, so you didn't watch the clip.

So now you tell me that I did not experience the experience I experienced.

 

[Lekatt]

(*) BELIEVE

I believe what I personally experience, not what science or religion tells me to believe.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Atheism is not a claim. It can't be true or false.
One does not "believe in" atheism. There's nothing there to believe.

Theism is the thing that can be believed.
Atheism is what we call it when one doesn't believe the claims of theism.

Theists are the ones who are trying to sell something.
One is an atheist when one isn't buying what theists are selling.
Atheists aren't trying to sell something else.

Sorry if you can't comprehend that.

Yes, I know. That is all I am. I am an atheist and all I do is to say: I am an atheist.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Disbelief is not proof, what objective evidence do you have to prove aliens do not exist?

Is anyone denying aliens? It is a vast universe hundreds of billions of galaxies, billions of stars in each galaxy and planets which outnumber them. What do we know of aliens, human-like or otherwise? And there are earth-like planets also where life could exist. But there is no evidence that they have ever visited earth or that any human has been abducted by them.

Sure it is a claim, a claim that there is no God!

Yes, it is a claim and belief of atheists because they have not found anything to accept the theory. What is your problem with that?

So now you tell me that I did not experience the experience I experienced.

How can I accept your experience? I have no such experience. And you may have your own reasons to make that claim. May be you are showing off in the forum.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Lack of objective evidence for a subjective experience does no imho confirm the absence of the claim of an NDE. Just like absence of objective evidence for the claim of an OOB experience does not confirm the absence of an OOB. Same for dream experiences, sixth sense experience, etc., etc..

What you are saying is that where there is a gap in objective knowledge that gap can be filled with anything and is true by virtue of being believed. How do you determine which believed answer of all the competing believed answers is the correct answer? If a million people believe one million different explanations for NDE, OOB, OPO, Bigfoot, alien abductions, etc. which is the right one. You no evidence to make the determination, so how is a determination made?

According to you I do not have evidence that my invisible clone is standing next to me with an invisible gun to my head. Therefore, it could be true. If I believe it, then it must be true.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I believe what I personally experience, not what science or religion tells me to believe.

All the evidence and scientific conclusions are that drinking a glass of strychnine will kill me rather violently. But I have not personally experienced it. So your advice is that I should ignore science and drink.

History books tell me about the life of Abraham Lincoln, but your advice is that I can ignore all that, because I have not personally experienced the life of Abraham Lincoln. I can live as if Lincoln never existed and he probably didn't since personal experience is the only tool you advise we have.

I am off to step into traffic. Despite the lies of science, I will surely survive the experience. Thank you for your advice.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

You believe in atheism, what objective evidence do you have that atheism is true?

What is belief in lack of belief? Is lack of belief the same as rejection of belief? I believe this goes back to some points that were made by @TagliatelliMonster, though he can correct me if I am wrong.

I do not believe I am surrounded by a flock of turkeys. Until this moment, I hadn't even thought about the possibility. I am in a room in a house on property where there are no turkeys known to be present. Is that the same as being surrounded by turkeys and rejected that fact.

What you are saying is that what you believe is fact and that anyone that rejects it is disbelieving. What you and anyone else believes has not been established to be fact. So how can someone disbelieve what cannot be demonstrated to exist for them to have the choice of rejecting it?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

You believe in atheism, what objective evidence do you have that atheism is true?

That would only be relevant if the atheist claimed there were no deities. Seeing no reason (no evidence) to believe in something is not a positive claim.

Do you know there is no secret conspiracy to get everyone to eat only black licorice or do you not bother with even thinking about it, since there is no reason to?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Those who experience know it is real and it changes their lives. Other may think as they please.

How is an experience determined to be real? If there is a test, why does no one share that test so that others know it is real?

If you want those that have not experienced something to know that what you claim an experience means is factual, how do you do that? Is it just repeating that you believe it?

I do not think that anyone is saying that believing in something will not or cannot change lives. The question is about what people claim something is.

 

[Lekatt]

How is an experience determined to be real? If there is a test, why does no one share that test so that others know it is real?

If you want those that have not experienced something to know that what you claim an experience means is factual, how do you do that? Is it just repeating that you believe it?

I do not think that anyone is saying that believing in something will not or cannot change lives. The question is about what people claim something is.

It is a personal experience that is sometimes verified by others as in Pam's surgery.
It is, what it is. You either trust what others say they experienced or you don't.