Near Death experiences and the scientific method.

[Lekatt]

So trust establishes that witness is valid. And all those we trust never do anything to invalidate that trust. Therefore, what the trusted say is immutable truth.

It's really up to you who to trust and who not to trust. I can't do that for you.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

It is not surprising that you do not understand what and who your are yet, that is the purpose of religious practice.. So long as you think religion is about belief, then it is not likely imho to ever discover what and who you really are. When I explained it is a subjective experience to realize the spiritual side of being, the concept of experience is probably not the right term to use as it implies a duality, the experiencer and the experience, whereas actually realizing what you really are is not a dualistic experience it is a realization of what you actually are and always have been. Hint....the Father and I are one. This realization is not dualistic, therefore it is not an experience you have, it is reality itself.

Science is a dualistic process, it can never in all eternity realize spirit because of that, and you apparently didn't get what I said about concepts, the reality represented by the concept of spirit is not in words, math, concepts, ideas, etc., it is what you actually already are if you go beyond the thought of it. When the mind is totally free from any thought, then and only then will reality be present that is on the other side of conceptualization. Cease having a thought arise in your mind and reality will be present directly instead of an idea about reality. When reality is present, there is nothing left to think about, in fact you can't because you are that reality, there is no separation, no duality present, the journey is over.

If there are no thoughts in the mind, what is this presentation of reality then?

I have never met any person that understands who and what they are. I have met many that believe they know. Perhaps one of them does. How can I know? How can they be certain? That is the duality.

Is believing you know equal to knowing? If I believe I have arrived, then the journey is over? What if the journey requires questions?

I gave a very basic description of religion. I did not say that is all I thought it was.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

It's really up to you who to trust and who not to trust. I can't do that for you.

But you are making claims about physical things you know to be true, yet cannot establish the validity of that truth by any means that you can share. It becomes another circular argument where I have to believe something I cannot demonstrate in order to believe what you believe, yet cannot demonstrate. The risk is believing something that might be false.

We are all constantly buffeted with claims that are the "truth" from trusted and questionable sources. What you are saying is that trusting something makes it truth. Yet there are also persist stories of that trust being broken. Sometimes questionable sources tell the truth and sometimes trusted sources fail. So, the premise that trust establishes truth does not seem to be a good indicator of validity.

When I was a child, I used to read "the world's greatest comic magazine". Was it? Who knows? I recall at the time noting this claim and wondering. I doubt everyone in the world was reading it. I don't know what definition of greatest was being used.

 

[Lekatt]

So, when the tv's brain is damaged the signals are interrupted no Kardashians.

Yes, and maybe more and maybe less depending on the damage. Use your scientific method and tell me how it is possible for a badly handicapped person to sit down at a piano, without any lessons and play flawless Beethoven. When did his brain learn how to play the piano so good with no lessons and no practice. Where did the music come from? It cam from his soul in a previous lifetime. You only need to listen to the first 10 minutes. Tell me this, show me the science. Oh, yes, there are more videos that show this type of phenomenon. A whole lot more.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Yes, and maybe more and maybe less depending on the damage. Use your scientific method and tell me how it is possible for a badly handicapped person to sit down at a piano, without any lessons and play flawless Beethoven. When did his brain learn how to play the piano so good with no lessons and no practice. Where did the music come from? It cam from his soul in a previous lifetime. You only need to listen to the first 10 minutes. Tell me this, show me the science. Oh, yes, there are more videos that show this type of phenomenon. A whole lot more.

I see. If science does not have an explanation, then any explanation you dream up is the truth. Is that sound reasoning? Isn't it gap reasoning?

Do you really know the explanation or do you just have a belief of an explanation that you really, really believe?

At one time, no one could show the science of disease, gravity, lightning, yet now we can. What is a believer going to do when there is more and more and more data to show a physical explanation. I didn't stop believing, because I understand the nature of it, but a person that exists only on the knowledge of their beliefs is betraying themselves.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Yes, and maybe more and maybe less depending on the damage. Use your scientific method and tell me how it is possible for a badly handicapped person to sit down at a piano, without any lessons and play flawless Beethoven. When did his brain learn how to play the piano so good with no lessons and no practice. Where did the music come from? It cam from his soul in a previous lifetime. You only need to listen to the first 10 minutes. Tell me this, show me the science. Oh, yes, there are more videos that show this type of phenomenon. A whole lot more.

Are you, in effect, closing your mind to explanations just because they do not fit with what you believe? Is that sound reasoning? Should I close my mind to possible explanations and just go with what someone tells me they believe is the explanation? Why should I choose your explanation over someone claiming aliens put the music in the handicap person's mind or that it is extradimensional?

 

[Lekatt]

But you are making claims about physical things you know to be true, yet cannot establish the validity of that truth by any means that you can share. It becomes another circular argument where I have to believe something I cannot demonstrate in order to believe what you believe, yet cannot demonstrate. The risk is believing something that might be false.

We are all constantly buffeted with claims that are the "truth" from trusted and questionable sources. What you are saying is that trusting something makes it truth. Yet there are also persist stories of that trust being broken. Sometimes questionable sources tell the truth and sometimes trusted sources fail. So, the premise that trust establishes truth does not seem to be a good indicator of validity.

When I was a child, I used to read "the world's greatest comic magazine". Was it? Who knows? I recall at the time noting this claim and wondering. I doubt everyone in the world was reading it. I don't know what definition of greatest was being used.

I have said this many, many times. Some NDEs are verified by doctors and surgeons in attendance. They collaborate the details of the experience as told by the experiencer. There is evidence, there is collaboration of many of them. See below.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Yes, and maybe more and maybe less depending on the damage. Use your scientific method and tell me how it is possible for a badly handicapped person to sit down at a piano, without any lessons and play flawless Beethoven. When did his brain learn how to play the piano so good with no lessons and no practice. Where did the music come from? It cam from his soul in a previous lifetime. You only need to listen to the first 10 minutes. Tell me this, show me the science. Oh, yes, there are more videos that show this type of phenomenon. A whole lot more.

You show me that your conclusions are correct. You are the one making the claims. It is not to me that showing anything is required.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I have said this many, many times. Some NDEs are verified by doctors and surgeons in attendance. They collaborate the details of the experience as told by the experiencer. There is evidence, there is collaboration of many of them. See below.

Goal post shift. I have not claimed that NDE's do not exist. I have made no claims that experiencing death in any way cannot or does not cause persons or people to change their lives. I do not deny that there is evidence for them.

What I want to know is how your explanation of them is valid and one that I should accept based on the evidence, since I cannot share your subjective experience.

All your videos do is make a claim, demand it be believed and all other explanations ignored. They are evidence, but just for that of reinforce existing belief and not explanation or support of the arguments for what is believed. They are evidence that some people believe and have video equipment.

 

[Lekatt]

I see. If science does not have an explanation, then any explanation you dream up is the truth. Is that sound reasoning? Isn't it gap reasoning?

Do you really know the explanation or do you just have a belief of an explanation that you really, really believe?

At one time, no one could show the science of disease, gravity, lightning, yet now we can. What is a believer going to do when there is more and more and more data to show a physical explanation. I didn't stop believing, because I understand the nature of it, but a person that exists only on the knowledge of their beliefs is betraying themselves.

I know the explanation, I know what some of my 59 past lives were about. My contact with spirit is a daily basis, yes, I know. So do most other people. Science does not know how this universe came into being, how we came into being, nor does science acknowledge the obvious presence of intelligence in the same. Now I like science, science has done wonders improving our health, and living conditions and many other things. But science is not God, it does not know what is beyond its sight which is rather narrow compared to the spiritual world. You are asking me to approve everything by the scientific method. The church used to ask me to believe everything the church said was true also. Don't turn science into just another religion that must be practiced according to the rules of same. That is short sighted as the church was. I don't go to church and I don't claim science. I am open to all things on their level and knowledge, this world is huge beyond belief and contains millions of undiscovered treasures of the mind, or soul. Truth always wins in the end.

 

[Lekatt]

You show me that your conclusions are correct. You are the one making the claims. It is not to me that showing anything is required.

Sure you are claiming that the brain is us, now prove.

 

[Lekatt]

Goal post shift. I have not claimed that NDE's do not exist. I have made no claims that experiencing death in any way cannot or does not cause persons or people to change their lives. I do not deny that there is evidence for them.

What I want to know is how your explanation of them is valid and one that I should accept based on the evidence, since I cannot share your subjective experience.

All your videos do is make a claim, demand it be believed and all other explanations ignored. They are evidence, but just for that of reinforce existing belief and not explanation or support of the arguments for what is believed. They are evidence that some people believe and have video equipment.

Other explanations could be anything and everything, nonsense included. You are arguing arguments for the sake of nothing explanations. I just don't get it.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Sure you are claiming that the brain is us, now prove.

I haven't made that claim, and yet it does seem a good diversion to force it on me and let us forget about unsupported claims and many, many unanswered questions.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Other explanations could be anything and everything, nonsense included. You are arguing arguments for the sake of nothing explanations. I just don't get it.

I am asking you why anyone should believe NDE's are what you claim and ignore all other explanations. You don't really seem to have any answer except to post more videos of claims.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I know the explanation, I know what some of my 59 past lives were about. My contact with spirit is a daily basis, yes, I know. So do most other people. Science does not know how this universe came into being, how we came into being, nor does science acknowledge the obvious presence of intelligence in the same. Now I like science, science has done wonders improving our health, and living conditions and many other things. But science is not God, it does not know what is beyond its sight which is rather narrow compared to the spiritual world. You are asking me to approve everything by the scientific method. The church used to ask me to believe everything the church said was true also. Don't turn science into just another religion that must be practiced according to the rules of same. That is short sighted as the church was. I don't go to church and I don't claim science. I am open to all things on their level and knowledge, this world is huge beyond belief and contains millions of undiscovered treasures of the mind, or soul. Truth always wins in the end.

How do I know and how do I know you know? How do you know that most other people know?

Science is not a person, so it cannot know anything. All you are saying is that people do not know something. Yet you, and others, claim to know. All I am asking is how and on what basis I should accept that.

You have made a number of additional claims in your post here. I assume, following the convention you have established here, you will not show me reason to accept them either.

I have not asked you to approve the findings of science. I have asked you to support your claims. So far, that support seems to be limited to "you believe something", logical fallacies, deflection and attempts to turn this back on anyone that challenges you. Then you post about trust.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The brain is an interface between us and the body. No we are not our bodies. We wear bodies in order to live and maneuver in the physical realms. We are pure energy. In our intrinsic form we can not be seen or heard in the physical. Most people call this the Spirit. You could call it the Soul, Vitality, or many other names. Most of the people living in this world believe in their spiritual form and that there is an afterlife. Only a small percentage don't. A small percentage of people still believe the world is flat also.

The number of people who believe in a thing has no bearing on whether or not that thing is actually true.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Sure you are claiming that the brain is us, now prove.

You have some fundamental misunderstanding of science right here. Science is not used to prove anything. Proof is not the standard of science. Demanding what you cannot provide is a double standard.

 

[SkepticThinker]

No scientist has ever proven an emotion, memory, or data is stored in the brain.

They actually demonstrated that. I even gave you examples. Examples that you completely ignored. That's not how science is done - that's how cherry picking is done. It's weird how you don't hold your own beliefs about your hypothesis to the same standards you expect from science.

You really should do some reading on brains. We know much more than you seem to think. And neuroscientists can actually demonstrate this stuff. Unlike yourself with your disembodied minds hypothesis.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The person who experiences the NDE knows, but showing it to others, well, that is a matter of trust.

Oh okay. Well I saw a leprechaun yesterday.

According to your hypothesis, you have to believe me just because I said so.

Good thing this isn't how it's actually done.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yes, and maybe more and maybe less depending on the damage. Use your scientific method and tell me how it is possible for a badly handicapped person to sit down at a piano, without any lessons and play flawless Beethoven. When did his brain learn how to play the piano so good with no lessons and no practice. Where did the music come from? It cam from his soul in a previous lifetime. You only need to listen to the first 10 minutes. Tell me this, show me the science. Oh, yes, there are more videos that show this type of phenomenon. A whole lot more.

Now you're trying an argument from personal incredulity which is another logical fallacy.
It appears that your entire hypothesis is based on cherry picking data and logical fallacies.
Good thing we don't do science that way.