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Necessary Being: Exists? - Mainly addressing atheists

firedragon

Veteran Member
Not 100% sure I understand the question or full argument either.

But correct me if I got it wrong, but basically what you mean is something like this right? (Not related to evolution, just used as an example)

For a thing to exist, lets say a chicken, we can't have a chicken produce a chicken. Meaning the first chicken must have come or developed from something that we wouldn't refer to as a chicken as we know it, and this thing would equally have come from another being etc. And as we continue going back, something have or could exist, which had no first cause but is a necessary being from which all other beings or things came from. Whether they are atoms, lifeforms or whatever.

Is that correct or did I misunderstand it?

If I got it right, I have myself played with the idea, mostly in regards to the multiverse idea, because I do not think that it explain what the cause is for these multiverses is in the first place. So even though one could reach the conclusion that if enough Universes were created eventually we could find one like ours, it do however not seem to explain where those came from in the first place.

In that regard, I played with the idea that this necessary "being" is existences it self, whatever such thing might be. Simply because it is the most simple state something can be in. Either something exist or it doesn't.
And given that something exist rather nothing, it could be the foundation from which everything else comes from, because it contain everything and it is impossible to create existences itself, because it is a state rather than a thing. If nothing (true nothing) existed, obviously there would be nothing to bring anything into existences.

But if existences as a state is true, then its in a state of "is" or it is in a state of "Is not" there are no other possibilities. However I do not see a need for this to be an actual being rather than something else. Because if it is a being and such thing is intelligent, have emotions etc. It is no longer a simple thing, but a rather complex and guided thing and to me it seems unlikely that such being would be the default or necessary being. Simply due to that. I personally prefer the most simple explanation, which is that it is unguided and without purpose, intentions, feelings or intelligence behind it.

It is merely a state from which all other things exist in or are bought into existence from as a result. Meaning that however this might work, it will not make humans in their final forms come into existences, but whatever building blocks we might find in the Universe or Universes would be a result of what this existence is capable of, so even atoms etc. might not be the foundation, but also merely a result of what the existence is capable of.

In that regard, I could buy into the idea of a necessary being, but I don't buy it as a complex God being.

You are right. And of course, this thread is absolutely not about God. This is to understand what you think as an atheist about the topic. So I really thank you for your post. It has a lot of information about your position.

Cheers.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
This thread will be directly relevant to atheists, yet also maybe to all theists and those who call themselves agnostic.

If you are an atheist and you are reading this post, what is your epistemic position on this topic? Does a necessary being exist?


Are you asking if there is a standard, by which all things can be measured? Or perhaps, a privileged point, from which all things can be observed? I don’t think there is - I think it’s all relative; but then, I think it’s all God.

Apologies if I’ve misunderstood.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Its interesting, but I think it relies on a non-sequitur.

To give you an example of what I mean, the unique genetic combination that made up my parents was necessary to make the unique genetic combination that is me.

But my parents continue to exist in other ways that what they did at my formation, for example they have aged.

So even though my logic skills are not due to formal training I think I can definitely identify that for a being to be necessary it does not logically follow that it will not continue to exist in other ways.

Is that what you mean when you say a necessary being can't exist in other ways (for example it can't age?).

In my opinion.

I have heard this argument all the time. No one says that a contingent being and its necessary being cannot exist independently, and the most common example for that is parents and children. But you see, its a fallacious argument and you saying the ontology in the OP is a non-sequitur means you have not understood it fully.

So where did your parents come from? Are they contingent?
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
This thread will be directly relevant to atheists, yet also maybe to all theists and those who call themselves agnostic.

If you are an atheist and you are reading this post, what is your epistemic position on this topic? Does a necessary being exist?
How would one define 'being', given that for humans such seems to imply something akin to themselves - in grander ways of course - but why would this be so? Oh, projection. :oops: Why not just say that existence implies existence - and for which we might all agree - instead of a wild goose chase as to discovering this 'being'. :rolleyes:
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Are you asking if there is a standard, by which all things can be measured? Or perhaps, a privileged point, from which all things can be observed? I don’t think there is - I think it’s all relative; but then, I think it’s all God.

Apologies if I’ve misunderstood.

Hmm. Let me put it this way. Without starting from today and you and I, I will go back to fundamentals.

1. Everything made up of pieces is dependent.
2. The universe is made up of pieces.
3. Therefore, the universe is dependent.

Thus, this makes the case that the Universe is dependent. What is it dependent on? If the universe itself is contingent, how long can this process go back? There is a fallacy called infinite regress, and only the explanation that a necessary being exists breaks that fallacy.

That is the OP about. This is a very basic argument so it does not cover a lot. Just good for an explanation.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
How would one define 'being', given that for humans such seems to imply something akin to themselves - in grander ways of course - but why would this be so? Oh, projection. :oops: Why not just say that existence implies existence - and for which we might all agree - instead of a wild goose chase as to discovering this 'being'. :rolleyes:

Because generally people don't relate to arbitrary words. If you wish to understand something you can do a search on the internet or just ask someone. Better than trying to attack the person with a why or why not use a word that you personally like.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
the universe is almost certainly uncaused.

"Almost" certainly? Please give some kind of reasoning or logic for this and why is it almost, and while saying its almost certainly uncaused you are making it look like you are making an absolute claim.

Thanks.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
"Almost" certainly? Please give some kind of reasoning or logic for this and why is it almost, and while saying its almost certainly uncaused you are making it look like you are making an absolute claim.

Thanks.

The point is that the opposite of 'contingent' is not 'necessary'. It is 'independent'. The universe (as a whole) exists independently of anything else because there is no 'anything else'.

Also, it appears that many, if not most, fundamental particles are 'independent'.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
The point is that the opposite of 'contingent' is not 'necessary'. It is 'independent'. The universe (as a whole) exists independently of anything else because there is no 'anything else'.

Also, it appears that many, if not most, fundamental particles are 'independent'.

You ignored the question. If you wish me to cut and paste the same thing I can.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
This thread will be directly relevant to atheists, yet also maybe to all theists and those who call themselves agnostic.

If you are an atheist and you are reading this post, what is your epistemic position on this topic? Does a necessary being exist?
A great mystery exists. It's the mystery source, sustenance, and purpose of all that is. It exists because everything that exists, exists in such a way as to refer back to a single source act. And the resulting complexity and balance of forces involved in creating and maintaining all that exists as a result of that act implies that the result of it all was the intent of it. We see existence as a complex, systematic process unfolding. And that drives us to ponder the possibility of a purpose.

But that means we have these very elemental and profound questions, and we do not have any answers for them. What we have, instead, because we are intelligent and imaginative creatures, are a great many speculations. And most of these speculations have over time become cohered into the idea of deity. Of some meta-force that is singularly responsible for all that is, and for how and why it is the way it is. And because this 'meta-force' is a mystery to us, and we are beings that survive and thrive by knowing how to control and manipulate our environment to our own advantage, we greatly fear the unknown. We fear this mystery because it is a mystery. And we desperately look for ways to gain some sort of control over it.

That's why so many humans throughout history have chosen to characterize this mystery as a "being". And more specifically, as a being more or less like ourselves. Because if this great mystery were a being more or less like ourselves, we would know how to control and manipulate it to our advantage, even though it is a mystery. And that, in a nutshell, is why "God" (the great mystery source, sustenance, and purpose of all that is) is envisioned by so many humans as an anthropomorphic "being".
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
A great mystery exists. It's the mystery source, sustenance, and purpose of all that is. It exists because everything that exists, exists in such a way as to refer back to a single source act. And the resulting complexity and balance of forces involved in creating and maintaining all that exists as a result of that act implies that the result of it all was the intent of it. We see existence as a complex, systematic process unfolding. And that drives us to ponder the possibility of a purpose.

But that means we have these very elemental and profound questions, and we do not have any answers for them. What we have, instead, because we are intelligent and imaginative creatures, are a great many speculations. And most of these speculations have over time become cohered into the idea of deity. Of some meta-force that is singularly responsible for all that is, and for how and why it is the way it is. And because this 'meta-force' is a mystery to us, and we are beings that survive and thrive by knowing how to control and manipulate our environment to our own advantage, we greatly fear the unknown. We fear this mystery because it is a mystery. And we desperately look for ways to gain some sort of control over it.

That's why so many humans throughout history have chosen to characterize this mystery as a "being". And more specifically, as a being more or less like ourselves. Because if this great mystery were a being more or less like ourselves, we would know how to control and manipulate it to our advantage, even though it is a mystery. And that, in a nutshell, is why "God" (the great mystery source, sustenance, and purpose of all that is) is envisioned by so many humans as an anthropomorphic "being".

With all due respect, you have got the whole "Being" thing wrong.

Being in philosophy just means "anything that exists".
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The question can be understood to be asking any one of a few things. It might be asking is it possible that there could have been nothing rather than the something we experience, that is, is there anything that had to exist making nothingness impossible.

There are other ways to interpret the question, such as given the world as we find it, is anything in it necessary, such as stars or life. The answer to that one is yes. I believe that given the initial conditions of the universe, much or all that followed was necessary, meaning that if another singularity broke symmetry as this one did and generated the same particles and forces, yes, they would generate galaxies of solar systems that would eventually harbor life and mind.

One might understand it to mean that given that our universe, which might not have existed (a contingent existence) but obviously does, is there anything else that necessarily exists for the world to exist, that is, even if there could have been nothing rather than something, does the fact that this universe exist imply the necessary existence of something prior to produce or sustain it. The question in this form invokes the musings of the ancients about necessary first causes (prime movers), and is an aspect of cosmological arguments for gods, the argument being that the universe is contingent (God didn't have to create it), but given its existence, an intelligent designer is necessary. That argument has been refuted. It is not clear that the existence of the universe requires that there be a prior cause.

But rather than list all of the ways the question can be conceived and answering them all, I'll answer the question asked in the first paragraph - could there have been nothing, or is there something that necessarily exists (is not contingent upon any other condition, and couldn't not exist).

I'd have to answer that perhaps that is the case, but if so, we cannot know that. It's an interesting question in that it underscores two different meanings of the word possible. The first is the obvious one - a thing or process or relationship that we know could come to pass because it has happened before.

But there are also things we call possible only because we don't know them to be impossible, but in fact may be and might even be come to be understood as impossible some day, but not yet. It is in that sense that I say that it is possible that there there be nothing rather than something even if it isn't because if the latter, I don't and can't know that to make come to that conclusion. From that perspective, I can call nothing a necessary being, but I also cannot say that nothing fits that description.

There is a book called Necessary Existence by Alexander R. Pruss and Joshua L. Rasmussen, an abstract from which defines a necessary being as "a concrete entity that cannot fail to exist," and adds that, "an example of such a being might be the God of classical theism or the universe of necessitarians. Necessary Existence offers and carefully defends a number of novel arguments for the thesis that there exists at least one necessary being."

This sounds relevant to the form of the question I have chosen to address, although I must say that I am doubtful that I could be convinced that anything necessarily exists as defined here by any argument. The reasoning faculty evolved within the universe to understand it from within, and is a poor judge of what is necessarily true about the universe as a whole or anything that may lie outside of it or have preceded it, as we can see when we look at very large and very small scales still within the universe and find them to be counterintuitive. Of course they are, as intuition also evolved to evaluate things on the scale of sensory experience, so I pretty much ignore such arguments as this book might contain.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
The question can be understood to be asking any one of a few things. It might be asking is it possible that there could have been nothing rather than the something we experience, that is, is there anything that had to exist making nothingness impossible.

There are other ways to interpret the question, such as given the world as we find it, is anything in it necessary, such as stars or life. The answer to that one is yes. I believe that given the initial conditions of the universe, much or all that followed was necessary, meaning that if another singularity broke symmetry as this one did and generated the same particles and forces, yes, they would generate galaxies of solar systems that would eventually harbor life and mind.

One might understand it to mean that given that our universe, which might not have existed (a contingent existence) but obviously does, is there anything else that necessarily exists for the world to exist, that is, even if there could have been nothing rather than something, does the fact that this universe exist imply the necessary existence of something prior to produce or sustain it. The question in this form invokes the musings of the ancients about necessary first causes (prime movers), and is an aspect of cosmological arguments for gods, the argument being that the universe is contingent (God didn't have to create it), but given its existence, an intelligent designer is necessary. That argument has been refuted. It is not clear that the existence of the universe requires that there be a prior cause.

But rather than list all of the ways the question can be conceived and answering them all, I'll answer the question asked in the first paragraph - could there have been nothing, or is there something that necessarily exists (is not contingent upon any other condition, and couldn't not exist).

I'd have to answer that perhaps that is the case, but if so, we cannot know that. It's an interesting question in that it underscores two different meanings of the word possible. The first is the obvious one - a thing or process or relationship that we know could come to pass because it has happened before.

But there are also things we call possible only because we don't know them to be impossible, but in fact may be and might even be come to be understood as impossible some day, but not yet. It is in that sense that I say that it is possible that there there be nothing rather than something even if it isn't because if the latter, I don't and can't know that to make come to that conclusion. From that perspective, I can call nothing a necessary being, but I also cannot say that nothing fits that description.

There is a book called Necessary Existence by Alexander R. Pruss and Joshua L. Rasmussen, an abstract from which defines a necessary being as "a concrete entity that cannot fail to exist," and adds that, "an example of such a being might be the God of classical theism or the universe of necessitarians. Necessary Existence offers and carefully defends a number of novel arguments for the thesis that there exists at least one necessary being."

This sounds relevant to the form of the question I have chosen to address, although I must say that I am doubtful that I could be convinced that anything necessarily exists as defined here by any argument. The reasoning faculty evolved within the universe to understand it from within, and is a poor judge of what is necessarily true about the universe as a whole or anything that may lie outside of it or have preceded it, as we can see when we look at very large and very small scales still within the universe and find them to be counterintuitive. Of course they are, as intuition also evolved to evaluate things on the scale of sensory experience, so I pretty much ignore such arguments as this book might contain.

How do you refute Rasmussen?
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
This thread will be directly relevant to atheists, yet also maybe to all theists and those who call themselves agnostic.

If you are an atheist and you are reading this post, what is your epistemic position on this topic? Does a necessary being exist?
No, that's why I'm an atheist, I don't believe any supreme being is necessary.
You always come down to the same problem ... where did the supreme being come from?
 
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