necessary for salvation

[pwfaith]

What struck me as interesting in this reply is that he chooses to answer with "God" e.g. "The Bible tells us that God has clearly revealed Himself in nature (Romans 1:20) and in the hearts of people (Ecclesiastes 3:11)."

This implies we must first accept Jesus as God (I am not debating that) but does it mean that a Christian can almost always answer questions about Jesus and salvation by referring to "God" or scripture on God rather than Jesus specifically?

I think it would depend on the context of the conversation. Those who believe in the Trinity probably use them interchangeably at times, but also recognize the individuality of each person of the Trinity.

 

[Katzpur]

What about the answer here, is that satisfactory? I am curious to know myself how this is answered (should you know please)?

What happens to those who have never heard about Jesus?

Question: "What happens to those who have never heard about Jesus?"

Answer: All people are accountable to God whether or not they have “heard about Him.” The Bible tells us that God has clearly revealed Himself in nature (Romans 1:20) and in the hearts of people (Ecclesiastes 3:11). The problem is that the human race is sinful; we all reject this knowledge of God and rebel against Him (Romans 1:21-23). If it were not for God's grace, we would be given over to the sinful desires of our hearts, allowing us to discover how useless and miserable life is apart from Him. He does this for those who continually reject Him (Romans 1:24-32).

I'm sorry, but that simply does not answer the question to my satisfaction. It's one thing to say that God has revealed himself in nature and in the hearts of the people, but quite another thing to insist that this means that everybody in the world has had the same opportunity to hear and understand the gospel of Jesus Christ. As a matter of fact, it would be comparable to an ostrich sticking its head in the sand to say that. Think of the millions of people who lived, for instance in 3rd century China or in the 12th century in the middle of an African jungle. Think of the people of the South Pacific Islands before Christianity arrived there, or the Anasazi Indians here in America. How can you possibly say that they had so much as a clue of who Jesus Christ was or what His gospel was? And that's not even considering all of the people who lived during Old Testament times. Yes, many of them believed in the same God you and I believe in, but they knew nothing of Christ. If God expects people to believe in something they've never heard of, it would make absolutely no sense whatsoever for Jesus to have told His Apostles to preach His gospel throughout the world. Recognizing that there is such a thing as a Higher Power is not the same thing as making a conscious choice to acknowledge the fact that Jesus Christ is the Savior sent to redeem us of our sins.

 

[Katzpur]

I am sorry but I do not know. I am still learning that myself.

I am so sorry for not knowing the answer to that question. I feel stupid now.

People should never feel stupid for not being able to answer a question. We're all learning.

 

[Villager]

As far as Christianity is concerned, what do you think is "necessary" for salvation?

The word 'Christianity' means 'belief in a Christ' or 'belief in the Christ', that Christ being Jesus of Nazareth. The word 'Christ' means 'saviour' and therefore 'ruler' or lord' as consequence of 'saviour'. As Jesus and his apostles said or wrote, one becomes saved when one accepts first that one needs saving because one has done evil, and also that Jesus died to 'pay for' that evil, in full, and once only. One then lives a life of gratitude, loving people because of what Christ did on one's behalf. If one cannot see love in one's life one is not grateful enough to Jesus, either because one does not realise how bad one's deeds are, or because one realises how bad one's deeds are, but is not prepared to live differently.

One cannot make oneself grateful. One is either prepared to give up everything for the sake of Christ, out of love, or one is not. It is rightly said that a Christian is saved by faith, but in a sense, the Christian is saved by love.

 

[JacobEzra.]

Faith, good works and penance. The constant struggle of denying yourself, carrying your cross and following the Christ.

 

[JacobEzra.]

I keep asking this (on about four different threads now) and have yet to get an answer: What about the people who died without ever having heard of Jesus? Are they going to be condemned to an eternity of torment?

Katzpur.

What do you think happens?

PS; was it you who asked something similar of this, in the Catholic Q&A? If so did you ever see how that went after?

 

[Katzpur]

Katzpur.

What do you think happens?

Here's what I said on the thread on Purgatory:

No, I don't believe in Purgatory, but I do believe in something from which the concept of Purgatory may have originated. I believe that the Prison Jesus visited during the three days His body lay in the tomb still exists and that the spirits of the unrepentant wicked who died without accepting His sacrifice are awaiting their resurrection. I also believe that the Paradise where He told the repentant thief He'd see him after they died still exists. Both of these places are a part of the Spirit World, which is where the spirits of all people go after they did. I believe that those whose spirits are in a state of torment (i.e. "Prison") can be released if they repent of their sins and accept Jesus Christ's Atonement, and I believe that those who are in a state of peace and rest (i.e. "Paradise") are teaching the wicked and helping them understand the message of Christ's gospel. By the time we are to stand before God to be judged, all will have been able to hear, understand and either accept or reject the message that can reconcile them to God.

Incidentally, this doctrine is not a new one. I can provide plenty of evidence that it existed long before the doctrine of Purgatory ever emerged.

That was just Mormon doctrine in a nutshell. I could elaborate, but won't unless asked.

PS; was it you who asked something similar of this, in the Catholic Q&A? If so did you ever see how that went after?

The only question I asked in the Catholic Q&A thread was the one you responded to. It concerned the eternal destiny of non-Catholic Christians like myself.

 

[JacobEzra.]

Here's what I said on the thread on Purgatory:

No, I don't believe in Purgatory, but I do believe in something from which the concept of Purgatory may have originated. I believe that the Prison Jesus visited during the three days His body lay in the tomb still exists and that the spirits of the unrepentant wicked who died without accepting His sacrifice are awaiting their resurrection. I also believe that the Paradise where He told the repentant thief He'd see him after they died still exists. Both of these places are a part of the Spirit World, which is where the spirits of all people go after they did. I believe that those whose spirits are in a state of torment (i.e. "Prison") can be released if they repent of their sins and accept Jesus Christ's Atonement, and I believe that those who are in a state of peace and rest (i.e. "Paradise") are teaching the wicked and helping them understand the message of Christ's gospel. By the time we are to stand before God to be judged, all will have been able to hear, understand and either accept or reject the message that can reconcile them to God.

Incidentally, this doctrine is not a new one. I can provide plenty of evidence that it existed long before the doctrine of Purgatory ever emerged.

That was just Mormon doctrine in a nutshell. I could elaborate, but won't unless asked.

The only question I asked in the Catholic Q&A thread was the one you responded to. It concerned the eternal destiny of non-Catholic Christians like myself.

I haven't been to the Purgatory thread since I posted. I lost the link and it is not in my "My Replies".

But I was asking about the Q&A for one, because I forgot who exactly it was, and two to see if you noticed I was wrong. Therefore getting a better Idea of what the Catholic Church teaches.

 

[Katzpur]

I haven't been to the Purgatory thread since I posted. I lost the link and it is not in my "My Replies".

Here's the link to the Purgatory thread for you.

But I was asking about the Q&A for one, because I forgot who exactly it was, and two to see if you noticed I was wrong. Therefore getting a better Idea of what the Catholic Church teaches.

I noticed that a couple of posters disagreed with you. I guess it's kind of a matter of how you all interpret the official Church position. Anyway, I got a couple of different perspectives, which was all I was looking for.

 

[JacobEzra.]

Here's the link to the Purgatory thread for you.

I noticed that a couple of posters disagreed with you. I guess it's kind of a matter of how you all interpret the official Church position. Anyway, I got a couple of different perspectives, which was all I was looking for.

Thanks.

And no, its because I understood the teaching wrongly.

I am still in rcia

 

[gdemoss]

True Salvation.

All that is required is faith.

Faith comes by hearing the word of God and believing it as is Abraham.
1. Hearing by preaching from one of Gods messangers.
2. Hearing by reading his word. (as stated by Peter, we have a more sure word of Prophecy)

What kind of faith saves?

The kind that Abraham has. Everything God told him, he believed. His works reflected his faith.

What does that kind of faith look like for us who have the complete written word of God?

Unlike the Israelites who only understood righteousness by the law, we have much more. The righteousness of God was manifest in the flesh. We understand the difference between light and darkness. Once we lived in darkness, until we saw the light and that light is Jesus. Having seen Jesus and his completely selfless life he lived to reconcile a lost world unto God, we see ourselves for the truely vile creatures that we are. Selfish and selfcentered (Out for number one). We believe upon Christ. We call upon Christ. We die. We are born again. We become new creatures in Christ. We continue to read his Word and be taught by Pastors and teachers who bring us up into the fullness of the stature in Christ. We walk in this world by the spirit and are as Christ is and understand what it truely means to look forward to the boldness we can now have on judgement day. We understand that we have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust and selfish desires by the knowledge of the person of Christ applied to our lives.
We begin to be hated by anyone who hates Christ including those who profess to know him but are liars. We are persecuted because we live godly in Christ Jesus without fear of retalliation from those that we inform of their evil ways as we emplore them to turn to Christ. We are ready an answer to these persecuters if they should inquire of the hope that lies within us as they see our lack of fear of them.

Welcome to the true Christian life.

A note about those who have never heard of Christ. Beginning with Adam and Eve, the promise of Chirst was made known by God (Gen 3:16). Of course not everyone that was born later recieved this information. So what about them? God owes no one anything. God picks and chooses who he will have mercy upon. When it came to making a decision on what to do about Sodom and Gomorrah, God decided to destroy them as an example rather than save them by sending a messanger to preach to them. Jesus told us that if the mighty works that were done in Capernaum were done in Sodom that they would have repented. Yet God chose to destroy them.

The bottom line is that it is God who decides who recieves the atonement and therefore the riteousness of Christ imputed unto them. It is ultimately God who decides if your faith has been made perfect by your works.

Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Most who call themselves Christians will hear those terrible words 'depart from me you worker of iniquity'.

To know him is to love him
To love him is to serve him
To serve him is to suffer for him
To suffer for him is to be free from sin.
To be free from sin is to have the life.

I am not here to debate or argue...to do so is sin. I am here merely to speak the truth in love. To those who have an ear to hear, I will see you in heaven.

 

[dance-above]

Faith in the only begotten, the gift of God. "He that hopes in Me will not be put to shame".

 

[Katzpur]

Most who call themselves Christians will hear those terrible words 'depart from me you worker of iniquity'.

How on earth would you know the words most Christians will hear? That seems like a pretty presumptuous thing to say, in my opinion.

 

[javajo]

Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved (from Acts 16).

Nothing in my hands I bring,
Simply to Thy cross I cling;
Naked, come to Thee for dress,
Helpless, look to Thee for grace;
Foul, I to Thy fountain fly,
Wash me, Savior, or I die!

Augustus Toplady

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

How on earth would you know the words most Christians will hear? That seems like a pretty presumptuous thing to say, in my opinion.

You have a good point. You both do.

 

[gdemoss]

How on earth would you know the words most Christians will hear? That seems like a pretty presumptuous thing to say, in my opinion.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

You must do the will of God to go to Heaven.

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Jesus says that the will of God is a narrow way and most wont find it.

And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Jesus says that if your not willing to follow his path then your out.

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

The old covenant of the law replaced by the new law of Christ which is to do the will of the Father. The will of the Father is that you believe in the Son, that he is the righteousness of God in the flesh.

God hath declared his righteousness for the remission of sin. You must repent from your works (way of life) and do Gods works. You must reject the world, being in it but not of it. This requires understanding what the world is and what you have to give up. To do this one must understand the difference between the spirit of God vrs the spirit of the devil. Who is the father of what?

God - father of Jesus. Selfless
Satan - father of Cain. Selfish and self centered

Jesus never took one thought for himself. He has called Christians to do the same. For many are called but few are chosen.

Something to think about. The spirit of God was poured out on Pentecost somewhere around AD 30. From that point on there were men and women who have led spirit led lives. Jesus chose to make himself the lowest servant on the planet and his followers are to do the same. In Greece, starting about 670 BC, the Olympic games had a celebration of the people. They loved competition and many competed merely for a wreath crown. By AD 30 they had many different types of contests including naked sprints. All of there actions were 'works of the flesh' as they had no guidance from the Holy Spirit. The spirit is contradictory to the flesh.

Fast forward to our present day. Football, baseball, NASCAR, tennis, Beauty pageants, Golf, Drag racing, Bass Masters tournaments, Basketball, ETC. How many people do you know that will forsake these things to follow Christ?

How about the worship of Hollywood? The various names etc. Mel Gibson puts out a movie called the passion of the Christ yet all his other movies are littered with ungodliness. One of Satan's best works (Mel Gibson).

Then we must address the worship of music and the various stars that produce it. 30,000 people gather together in simultaneous worship of a person or people.

Then there is the various forms of Self-Expression such as tattoos, piercings, wild hair styles etc. Self-Expression is the exaltation of self not the denying of self. Pick up your cross, deny yourself and follow Jesus.

Then there is the issue of clothing. If a person is denying themselves and serving others, then the way they dress is going to be in a way that doesn't excite desires in the members of the opposite sex that they cannot lawfully fulfill. The scripture says "he has already committed adultery with her in his heart". She was advertising. Same goes for men.

Add to that heresy (work of the flesh). Jesus was the person of God but just an ordinary human for approximately 30 years, until his baptism where he was anointed with the Holy Spirit and power. Many teach otherwise saying that humans cannot live without sin as Jesus because he was 100% God and 100% man. All those who follow this doctrine will be lost.

(heresy) All I need is the blood of Christ, my works don't matter. It is true that works cannot save a person but works can condemn a person as a non believer even though there mouth says otherwise. All who follow this doctrine such as the baptists will be lost.

(heresy) Mary is the mother of God and I must pray to her. More heresy that the followers will all be lost including the pope.

We are not even useful to God until we purge yourself from false doctrine.
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 2 Tim 2:21.

But we are fighting a very difficult war. Satan has done a very good job infiltrating the church and has used Balaam to teach others how to cast a snare upon the church and cause them to continue in sin being the servants of it. The church is in bed with the daughters of Moab.

Satan deceived the whole world once and God flooded it. 1640 years
Satan deceived the nation of Israel and they killed the Messiah. 2400 years
Satan deceived the church into thinking that it was easy to be saved. 2000 years.

Some say to me that I have overstepped my bounds and have judged. The truth is that I am just doing what my Lord did when he said "except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven"

For this cause I weep. I am not willing that any should perish.

We live in a world that hates God and worships the works of their own hands.

 

[javajo]

What is necessary for salvation? This is what I believe from years of living and studying: Realizing the great gulf between holy God and sinful man and that there is not one thing we can do can bridge it. Jesus did that by paying the penalty of all our sins on the cross. If we dead, poor, miserable, loathsome, black-hearted sinners trust Christ to have paid for all our sins, adding nothing we do but relying only on what he did, then we are saved, freely and eternally, and we will never be the same again.

That is amazing grace. Some believe they have done so much wrong they cannot be forgiven. Some believe they are pretty good and just need a little grace to 'help' them along as they 'earn' salvation. Neither realize that while compared to each other, one person may seem quite a bit better than another, but compared to a holy God, they are light years away. One may say a skyscraper is much taller than a one story building, but compared to the vast expanse from here to the constellation Orion, there is no difference. That is how holy God is and how unholy we are. You may think you are a pretty good person. But in God's eyes, we are all as an unclean thing, and that includes you, and that includes me, like it or not. And we all get saved the same way, we receive salvation from God as a free gift, undeserved and only by his mercy. Salvation is not achieved, but received, for salvation is from God to us, a one way deal. There is no other way.

 

[Shermana]

To be saved you need to repent (change your mind about) your sins and accept Jesus as your Friend, God, Lord, and Savior. That is all there is to it.

And the definition of sin, according to 1 John 3:4-10 is.....?

 

[Shermana]

How on earth would you know the words most Christians will hear? That seems like a pretty presumptuous thing to say, in my opinion.

I know for a fact most Christians will hear it, the word "Iniquity" is "lawlessness", and 99% of Christians (or rather I should say "Paulines") think the Law is done away with due to their interpretation of Paul. It's presumptious to assume they WONT hear it and to rewrite your definition of "lawlessness" from its intended meaning. Even using the word "Iniquity" is a great disservice as it takes away from the intended meaning of "going against the Mosaic Law" at face value., The word is "Anomian".

And there's also Revelation 3:15-16 with the Lukewarm.

Bad Theology will in fact lead one to hell, and intellectual laziness keeps one in Bad Theology.

 

[Bob Dixon]

Some people here haven't read the letter of James...