NEED of GURU

[zenzero]

Friends,

Personally never sought a guru consciously in this life till date and still find guidance when required.
When does one require guidance?
when one is driven by the mind.
What is the role of the guru?
to guide one to reach the state of no-mind.
Having reached the state of no-mind is the guru necessary?
Not as such as then there is neither any guru or disciple; both are part of existence.

Here is a Q&A from Ramana Maharshi:

Sri Ramana Maharshi: It all depends on what you call a Guru. He need not be in a human form. Dattatreya had twenty-four Gurus including the five elements- earth, water, etc. Every object in this world was his Guru.

The Guru is absolutely necessary. The Upanishads say that none but a Guru can take a man out of the jungle of intellect and sense perceptions. So there must be a Guru.

Questioner: I mean a human Guru- Maharshi did not have one.

Sri Ramana Maharshi: I might have had one at one time or other. But did I not sing hymns to Arunachala? What is a Guru? Guru is God or the Self. First a man prays to God to fulfil his desires.
A time comes when he will no more pray for the fulfilment of material desires but for God Himself. God then appears to him in some form or other, human or non-human, to guide him to Himself in answer to his prayer and according to his needs.

There is much more Q & A on the subject which everyone can read at: Guru

The discussion is open for any doubts in anyone's mind that a physical guru is a must!

Love & rgds

 

[Satsangi]

I believe Guru is a must. One cannot read a text of Medicine and start practicing. One needs a guide to teach practical Medicine. Similar is the Spiritual field. If one has already reached a stage of Mukti, even then, a Guru always remains a Guru.

Regards,

 

[zenzero]

Friend Satsangi,

I believe Guru is a must. One cannot read a text of Medicine and start practicing. One needs a guide to teach practical Medicine. Similar is the Spiritual field. If one has already reached a stage of Mukti, even then, a Guru always remains a Guru.

The word *belief* itself is mind related and so follows the rest.
An understanding of what is a guru itself needs to be understood.

Love & rgds

 

[Onkara]

Hi
For "me" both the need (or no need) and the Guru are part of life, there is nothing "I" can do or could have done to stopped either a Guru or the need itself from arising or not arising if it were to be so.

 

[Satsangi]

Friend Satsangi,


The word *belief* itself is mind related and so follows the rest.
An understanding of what is a guru itself needs to be understood.

Love & rgds

In the 5th Canto of Bhagvatam, Jada Bharata has said a beautiful thing about the mind. The mind is the cause of rebirths/reincarnations and the mind is also the instrument of liberation. So, no mind is not always a necessity, but is a "station" in the path to liberation.

Sri Ramana has said that if your thoughts and Vasanas are silenced in a Guru's presence, then He is the true Guru. I am very much still a body and not "Self" yet and hence need another body who I can relate to as a Guru.

Regards,

 

[Onkara]

. I am very much still a body and not "Self" yet and hence need another body who I can relate to as a Guru.

Regards,

Hello Satsangi
Isn't the above symbolic that the eyes are open? Isn't this the realisation that both "being body requires a Guru" and not being a body means it can only be the Self, the actual answer?

 

[zenzero]

Friends,

Next; like to open a discussion on the aspect of whether one should seek a guru or that the guru seeks the individual??
Personal understanding is that something which is at a lower plain cannot climb upwards like the river can flow downwards and so the knowledge at the higher plane touches the ones at the lower plane.

Does it mean that one should wait for the guru to seek him??
Yes, the individual to personal understanding should endevour to prepare himself for the merger and since we learn everyday from some one or some books or some episode itself means that the learning is through a medium which is higher and so they are all our gurus for that which we learn from them and the journey continues till merger.

How does one know if the one who has come is the real guru?
Consciousness within the individual will be witness to it and any case one never loses anything as he started with nothing to begin with.

Love & rgds

 

[Kriya Yogi]

Sri Ramana Maharshi said it well in the quote you provided. A Guru is a must. A true Guru is God in human form. When you desire God enough to obey the Guru's every command he will come to you. When you vow to be his disciple he takes charge of your soul's guidance towards God. He sees your karma, and what spiritual blocks you must need to get out of delusion. The mind is to clouded with delusion of Maya to get out by himself. He needs his grace, wisdom, spiritual blessing, and love to get out of this delusion.

To answer your questions. The Guru will find you when the time is right. You should still search for a Guru, but in your prayers and meditation. Sincerly pray to God that you want him to show you the way to him through a Guru and eventually if you are truly sincere and desire God above all else he will automatically guide you to that blessed meeting of your eternal Guru. You will know if he is the real Guru in his wisdom and how much his teachings ring true in your heart. His actions will reflect a true God realized man, and it will only be a matter of time before you know if he is true or not.

 

[zenzero]

Friend KY,

As have stated earlier am present as much in agreement as in disagreement as the view points for each are unique.

Love & rgds

 

[kaisersose]

If I may jump in with my position...

The concept of a physical Guru is outdated. Back in history, before the era of printing, it was not as easy for one to get access to books. Manuscripts were hand copied and maintained by teachers. The livlihood of these teachers depended on them having a certain number of students. One had to go to the teacher (with fuel in hand, etc) and study under this teacher.

This trend was no longer an absolute necessity, after printing was invented. Today, we have translations posted on websites and people handing out free prints at airports, etc. Clearly, it is no longer necessary to go to a Guru to gain access to a manuscript.

For traditional reasons however, a few people still hold on to the practice.

 

[Kriya Yogi]

If I may jump in with my position...

The concept of a physical Guru is outdated. Back in history, before the era of printing, it was not as easy for one to get access to books. Manuscripts were hand copied and maintained by teachers. The livlihood of these teachers depended on them having a certain number of students. One had to go to the teacher (with fuel in hand, etc) and study under this teacher.

This trend was no longer an absolute necessity, after printing was invented. Today, we have translations posted on websites and people handing out free prints at airports, etc. Clearly, it is no longer necessary to go to a Guru to gain access to a manuscript.

For traditional reasons however, a few people still hold on to the practice.

This may be true in the immediate sense for a devotee, but the divine connection, guidance, and spark that you get by the Guru's shakti, grace, love, and wisdom of your soul is the real reason a real Guru is needed. If they aren't accessible then tuning your consciousness with theirs in meditation and reading their words will have to suffice. That connection though is needed so he can take charge of your life until you are free.

 

[zenzero]

Friend kaisersose & Kriya Yogi,

What you have mentioned is one part and what friend Kriya Yogi is stating is anotherpart and the totality of both is this:
What is existence?
and what are forms?
if the understanding develops that each form is nothing but a part of that same existence labelled God/Whole/Tao/Brahman/etc.
When the form is always connected what else is required?
To harmonise this individual energy [form] with that of the universal energy labelled God/Whole/Tao/Brahman/etc.
To do this or to harmonise what is required?? GUIDANCE!
Where do one get guidance?
books and masters or anyone/anything that transmits the message.
When the individual energy is tuned/focused/state of oneness then guidance is available from every atom in and around the form and the form keeps evolving.
Meaning those who cannot take the help of existence directly of which he is a part may depend on other forms who are more evolved as they too are parts of the same energy but at a higher plane and as we know the river of knowledge flows downwards it is natural BUT never should be the relationship taken as giver and taker as both are part of existence and existence is one there is neither any giver nor any taker.
It is only the minds that creates the illusion of separateness.
We also know from Mahabharata that gurus too are influenced by their minds:
e.g. in Mahabharata too we find partiality by a guru when Ekalavya who mentally had accepted Dronacharya as his guru had to sacrifice his thumb only because his guru felt that his favorite student Arjuna should not have a second.

Repeat the personal understanding that the individual need to always focused on his own preparation for the merger and not waste time in looking for gurus as guidance comes on its own accord when the season is ripe when the individual is ready.

Even if millions of words were stated on the subject it may be none or one or at most few who reads and understands the pointers herein but surely they will be those who have prepared themselves for such an understanding.

Love & rgds

 

[Satsangi]

Hello Satsangi
Isn't the above symbolic that the eyes are open? Isn't this the realisation that both "being body requires a Guru" and not being a body means it can only be the Self, the actual answer?

Hi Onkarah,

There is a Shloka in the BG (Karma Yoga) as well as in the Bhagvatam that even the person who has realized the Nirguna Brahman (or the Self/Atman) needs to realize the Supreme God. Realized Guru or God's grace is the only means for this to happen; hence yes the Guru is a must and so does the Upanishads say.

Friend Zenzero,

Dronacharya is a Guru to learn the art of war; he is not the Guru for Spiritual progress.

Regards,

 

[zenzero]

Friend Satsangi,

The word *GURU* itself has a connotation and without spiritual progress no art is progressed! The spirit guides the rest of the body. each form is body-soul not body or not spirit alone.
[Yes Drona's status is known even while mentioning it as an example besides there are many we see on TV every now and then but the fact is about MIND and NO-MIND}.

Love & rgds

 

[Satsangi]

Friend Satsangi,

The word *GURU* itself has a connotation and without spiritual progress no art is progressed! The spirit guides the rest of the body. each form is body-soul not body or not spirit alone.
[Yes Drona's status is known even while mentioning it as an example besides there are many we see on TV every now and then but the fact is about MIND and NO-MIND}.

Love & rgds

Friend Zenzero,

I do not consider Dronacharya an ideal Guru to achieve enlightenment just like my math teacher cannot enlighten me except in maths. If a Guru is controlled by mind, he is not a Guru that can give you enlightenment. It also depends on the student what to learn and what not to learn from the "Guru". Lord Dattatreya avoided many things from the multiple "Gurus" he encountered.

Regards,

 

[atanu]

Friend kaisersose & Kriya Yogi,

if the understanding develops that each form is nothing but a part of that same existence labelled God/Whole/Tao/Brahman/etc.
----
To harmonise this individual energy [form] with that of the universal energy labelled God/Whole/Tao/Brahman/etc.

Hello Zenzero and others

I am not going to argue. This is just for information and a request.

Brahman enters the world as prajna and in the world, Brahman - the Lord and the whole, has names and forms and parts etc. .

But Transcendental Brahman called Prabhu and Turya, as per Dvaita and Advaita darshana, cannot have any parts. Upanishad teaches that one who sees any other or one sees any difference goes from death to death. One cannot imagine Brahman dying. If one analyses-introspects the explanation of Turya in upanishads, it will be clear. Turya is devoid of forms and names, which only occur in taijjassa (dreaming) and vaisvanara (waking) states of the world. Even, Shushupti is devoid of forms and names.

Neither is Brahman mere energy -- at least not in my knowledge. Brahman's expressed nature is Sat-Chit-Ananda.

I have a request to make, that comparison between Tao and Brahman should not be resorted to so loosely.

...

 

[zenzero]

Friend atanu,

Thank you for your explanation.

However if you would be conscious that mostly state it is *PERSONAL UNDERSTANDING* which could differ from individual to individual depending on their own understanding.
Yes it is not a question of argument simply because only those matters of the MINDS are argued upon and not which is personal, individualistic and of no-mind.

Brahman's expressed nature is Sat-Chit-Ananda.

Personal understanding is that it is also labelled as *CONSCIOUSNESS* and this consciousness is nothing but ENERGY [shakti] to personal understanding.

However each individual [form] is limited by factors which could limit understanding as without limits even the form may not remain for long; in such a case it is always open for any light on the subject to clear that part which may be still unclear or where the cloud still hangs.
so kindly feel free to point any thing freely, highly appreciated at all times as the process of evolving carries on for existence at large!
Love & rgds

 

[Satsangi]

Hi,

This is my information and input. Vishwa, Taijas and Prajna are the labels for the Jivatma in the Jagrat, Swapna and Shushupti states. Yes, Turiya is the 4th state, but I am not aware of the source where it says Turiya = Brahman.

Further Advaita, Vishishtadvaita and Dvaita have different takes on the Supreme form of God. Different people have interpreted formless/form in different ways. I have come to a decision that God has a DIVINE form not visible to Mayik Indriyas/anthakarana and hence is referred to as formless in many Scriptures. Other thing I believe is that the BrahmaJyoti and the Atman is formless.

I agree with Atanu that Tao and Brahman are NOT the same.

Regards,

 

[chinu]

Next; like to open a discussion on the aspect of whether one should seek a guru or that the guru seeks the individual??

For Example:
When somebody is really "THIRSTY" , does efforts to find the water,
So we can say that firstly "THIRSTNESS" has found that body, than only the efforts to find water began,

Now! What is this "THIRSTNESS" or "THIRSTNESS FOR GOD" ?

We can call this "THIRSTNESS" as "LOVE" or "LOVE for GOD",
As "God is love" "Love is God",

In fact we can also say that firstly "LOVE" has found that body, and "LOVE for GOD" has appeared afterwards,

As "Guru" & "God" are one and the same things,

FINALLY, we can say that firstly "Guru" or "God" or "Love" has found that body, and "Love" or "Thirstness" for "God" or "Guru" or "Love" appeared afterwards.

Yes! We can never say that we have find the "Guru", but we can say that we have seeked a guru, because firstly the "THIRSTNESS of SEEKING" has appeared "naturelly".

And everything which happens "Naturelly" is according to what is decided by "God" or "Love" or "Guru".

Don't know about anybodyelse, but i can also say everything which happens "Naturelly" is according to what is decided by "God" or "Love" or "Guru" or "livinguru".

Does it mean that one should wait for the guru to seek him??

One cannot do anything insted of praying to "God" that he/she should be catched by TRUE THIRSTNESS or TRUE LOVE or TRUE GURU or GOD.

We can have the look on history of lifes of past spiritual teachers or master,
They spended their whole life crying and weaping in front of "God".

Rest everything is Apart and Afterwards,

No intelligence or sences can work on this matter,

That's all

_/\_Chinu.

 

[zenzero]

Friend chinu,

Thank you for your response.

Love & rgds