NEED of GURU

[Wannabe Yogi]

Friend Zenzero,

I do not consider Dronacharya an ideal Guru to achieve enlightenment just like my math teacher cannot enlighten me except in maths. If a Guru is controlled by mind, he is not a Guru that can give you enlightenment.

A story about this subject that Ramakrishna use to tell.

One day as I was passing the Panchavati on my way to the pine-grove, I heard a bullfrog croaking. I thought it must have been seized by a snake. After some time, as I was coming back, I could still hear its terrified croaking. I looked to see what was the matter, and found that a water snake had seized it. The snake could neither swallow it nor give it up. So there was no end to the frog's suffering. I thought that had it been seized by a cobra it would have been silenced after three croaks at most. As it was only a water snake, both of them had to go through this agony. A man's ego is destroyed after three croaks, as it were, if he gets into the clutches of a real teacher. But if the teacher in an unripe one, then both the teacher and the disciple undergo endless suffering. The disciple cannot get rid either of his ego or of the shackles of the world. If a disciple falls into the clutches of an incompetent teacher, he doesn't attain liberation.

 

[Kriya Yogi]

A story about this subject that Ramakrishna use to tell.

One day as I was passing the Panchavati on my way to the pine-grove, I heard a bullfrog croaking. I thought it must have been seized by a snake. After some time, as I was coming back, I could still hear its terrified croaking. I looked to see what was the matter, and found that a water snake had seized it. The snake could neither swallow it nor give it up. So there was no end to the frog's suffering. I thought that had it been seized by a cobra it would have been silenced after three croaks at most. As it was only a water snake, both of them had to go through this agony. A man's ego is destroyed after three croaks, as it were, if he gets into the clutches of a real teacher. But if the teacher in an unripe one, then both the teacher and the disciple undergo endless suffering. The disciple cannot get rid either of his ego or of the shackles of the world. If a disciple falls into the clutches of an incompetent teacher, he doesn't attain liberation.

Very interesting way of saying this and a scary visual I might add. Nevertheless is very true. If he is not God Realized then it's like the blind leading the blind for the Guru does not know exactly what is best for his disciples.

 

[kaisersose]

A story about this subject that Ramakrishna use to tell.
One day as I was passing the Panchavati on my way to the pine-grove, I heard a bullfrog croaking. I thought it must have been seized by a snake. After some time, as I was coming back, I could still hear its terrified croaking. I looked to see what was the matter, and found that a water snake had seized it. The snake could neither swallow it nor give it up. So there was no end to the frog's suffering. I thought that had it been seized by a cobra it would have been silenced after three croaks at most. As it was only a water snake, both of them had to go through this agony. A man's ego is destroyed after three croaks, as it were, if he gets into the clutches of a real teacher. But if the teacher in an unripe one, then both the teacher and the disciple undergo endless suffering. The disciple cannot get rid either of his ego or of the shackles of the world. If a disciple falls into the clutches of an incompetent teacher, he doesn't attain liberation.

And to complicate the matter further, there is no way to know for sure if a certain Guru is qualified or not. One just has to go by personal preferences, sentiments and luck of the draw. The same Guru is enlightened to some and not, to others. It is very similar to marriage in the US where 50% of them fail (apparently).

 

[Kriya Yogi]

And to complicate the matter further, there is no way to know for sure if a certain Guru is qualified or not. One just has to go by personal preferences, sentiments and luck of the draw. The same Guru is enlightened to some and not, to others. It is very similar to marriage in the US where 50% of them fail (apparently).

Some enlightened beings are unmistakeable though. For example Buddha, Jesus, Yogananda, Lihiri Mahasaya, and Sri Yukteswar.

 

[kaisersose]

Some enlightened beings are unmistakeable though. For example Buddha, Jesus, Yogananda, Lihiri Mahasaya, and Sri Yukteswar.

It is debatable. Note that we are talking of these people in the past tense which means they have attained a certain degree of fame. - in most cases due to the efforts of some of their followers. If not, we would not be discussing them.

Hindsight is 20/20 and in all such cases, the perception was different when they were alive. Most people during Jesus's time did not find him extraordinary and the same with the Buddha as well. There are stories of Krishna where a lot of people during his time failed to see his divinity.

 

[Kriya Yogi]

It is debatable. Note that we are talking of these people in the past tense which means they have attained a certain degree of fame. - in most cases due to the efforts of some of their followers. If not, we would not be discussing them.

Hindsight is 20/20 and in all such cases, the perception was different when they were alive. Most people during Jesus's time did not find him extraordinary and the same with the Buddha as well. There are stories of Krishna where a lot of people during his time failed to see his divinity.

That is true. It all depends on what tell tale signs you are looking for as well. Some people during those times had the intuition and automatic connection to their Guru's. Some just know either by some sign of God or the Guru reassures him in a way they would only know.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

And to complicate the matter further, there is no way to know for sure if a certain Guru is qualified or not. One just has to go by personal preferences, sentiments and luck of the draw. The same Guru is enlightened to some and not, to others. It is very similar to marriage in the US where 50% of them fail (apparently).

Yes, it is hard. One has to use their intellect and study people over time. How many Gurus is the West have had sexual and financial scandals. Then again just because someone is accused of corruption does not mean that they are unethical.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Satsangi,

I do not consider Dronacharya an ideal Guru to achieve enlightenment

That is your *I*[mind] that has limitation is understanding.
Personally the individual who used to teach craft to our class/school was instrumental in pointing what alertness or awareness is. He himself was never aware that he was emitting such pointers himself [mind].
He had an uncanny knack to know exactly where each of us were seated and know who made any noise, even whispering and while writing on the board could throw a chalk from the back or turn around and hit exactly the student who whispered.
The person expired recently; was he a guru??? yes and no. He taught craft but the craft of being conscious was something that he had pointed. He was instrumental but there was no ownership, relationship in what transpired. That is how existence sends pointers indirectly at all times provided the individual is awake, prepared, open.

Love & rgds

 

[Satsangi]

Friend Satsangi,



That is your *I*[mind] that has limitation is understanding.
Personally the individual who used to teach craft to our class/school was instrumental in pointing what alertness or awareness is. He himself was never aware that he was emitting such pointers himself [mind].
He had an uncanny knack to know exactly where each of us were seated and know who made any noise, even whispering and while writing on the board could throw a chalk from the back or turn around and hit exactly the student who whispered.
The person expired recently; was he a guru??? yes and no. He taught craft but the craft of being conscious was something that he had pointed. He was instrumental but there was no ownership, relationship in what transpired. That is how existence sends pointers indirectly at all times provided the individual is awake, prepared, open.

Love & rgds

Friend Zenzero,

What if your mind is "over interpreting" about the "pointers sent by existence" because it suits the way your mind thinks?.... lol. Being "alert" of the surroundings is not "here- now." There is a huge gap between alertness and Consciousness.

Regards,

Regards,

 

[Surya Deva]

The best indicator if somebody is enlightened is whether they have siddhis. Anybody can behave outwardly as if they are calm and serene, compassionate and intelligent, but very few can actually demonstrate that they really are at higher levels of consciousness by displaying siddhis. Those who do not have them and yet want to feign enlightenment downplay the importance of siddhis.

Now with people like Buddha, Krishna, Guru Nanak and Jesus, because they are historical people who lived thousands of years ago it is difficult to test whether they had the siddhis that they were said to have. I am inclined to believe they did. I certainly believe Patanjali had them because he gives very detailed descriptions of them, which are only possible by somebody who has had them themselves. In modern times we can test people to see if they have siddhis either by directly observing a demonstration of their powers or accepting second hand testimony from people we trust such as scientists and peer-reviewed experimental data.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Satsangi,

Hahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Your mind is still holding on to something that happened when was between 10 & 14 years old and which was 43 years ago. AM sure the eternal existence never stops the pointers except the form that wishes to find them.

Love & rgds

 

[zenzero]

Friend Surya Deva,

The best indicator if somebody is enlightened is whether they have siddhis.

Kindly go ahead and do whatever your minds wants but that is applicable for those who claim to be *enlightened* and not others for whom there is nothing as enlightenment and considers everyone enlightened except that they do not know it.

Love & rgds

 

[kaisersose]

The best indicator if somebody is enlightened is whether they have siddhis. Anybody can behave outwardly as if they are calm and serene, compassionate and intelligent, but very few can actually demonstrate that they really are at higher levels of consciousness by displaying siddhis. Those who do not have them and yet want to feign enlightenment downplay the importance of siddhis.

Ramana never displayed Siddhis as in miracles. Yet, he is widely considered a Liberated soul.

Shankara's (800 AD) biography (not written by him) is rife with stories of miracles performed by him - turning the course of the river to make it easier for his Mom, showers of gold coins, meeting Vyasa, etc. This was standard MO then, as all biographies from that time had no shortage of miracle stories.

And yet, in his BSB, Shankara clearly says - "Just because miracles do not happen today does not mean they were not happening long ago". Obviously, he wasn't into miracles as claimed by his biographer, but is accepted as a Jivanmukta.

Sai Baba is into miracles or magic and yet he has plenty of critics. That is why, I say it is all about personal preferences and sentiments.

 

[zenzero]

Friends,

Once again understand that mind when still is no-mind and if at all any proof is required still the mind that is driving you outwards; get that mind to still and experience for yourself.
Pointers or ways are available in existence through various sources be they other humans, animals, books, gurus anything which penetrates your being.
Till one experiences himself such a form will we driven by their minds to find that musk elsewhere, which his own self has been carrying since birth.

Love & rgds

 

[Satsangi]

I agree with Kaisersose that Siddhis cannot be taken as indicating enlightenment. Even Ravana and other Demons had such powers.

In my opinion, one knows who is enlightened by coming into contact with the enlightened person. It is communicated non verbally and infalliably if you are destined to know.

Regards,

 

[zenzero]

Friends,

Excuse me for butting in but again to personal understanding Ravana was an enlightened individual except that his karma had one conscious act left of his form that of being killed by RAMA. [conscious death is necessary to take a last birth consciously in a human form]
Again also understand that all dualities makes a complete *whole* ram /ravana, day/night etc and transcending duality is what merger is where it is not two.

Love & rgds

 

[Satsangi]

I tend to draw a clear distinction between Rama and Ravana and do not hyphenate both under the "existence". Ravana was learned, but so were many unruly characters in history and just knowing scriptures does not make one enlightened. Even if you consider Ravana as "enlightened", there were plenty of demons in his army with supernatural powers- were all of them enlightened?... lol

Regards,

 

[kaisersose]

This is from the tattvavaada faq ->
Dvaita FAQ

Why does Tattvavâda deny jîvan-mukti?

Because a mukta, or liberated person, should not even be physically present in the material universe, unlike the un-liberated. A person who is living in the world cannot be said to be free of sorrow born of material contact, and also cannot be said to experience the joy of his own nature at all times. The very act of living in a gross material body entails things such as eating, sleeping, pleasure and pain, etc., which cannot be accepted in a mukta.

 

[Surya Deva]

And who is it to say that Ravana is not enlightened? Who is to say that all enlightened beings will behave in the same way and always do things that you consider good? Many things that Krishna did are not considered good by many people, theft of yoghurt as a child, killing demons, kansa, shishupal and telling Arjuna to slay and kill his relatives. Telling Yudhishtra to lie to Dronacharya that his son Arshwadhamma is dead(when really it was an elephant of the same name) Telling Bhima to break the rules of mace war and hit Duryodhana under his waist.

I am not asking for you to justify the actions of Krishna, because I already believe them to justified, but I am getting you to question your assumption that enlightenment entails certain actions and excludes certain actions.

For me enlightenment is a slippery word, much like the word avatar. It is relative. One person could be have a higher state of consciousness than another, and that person is therefore enlightened, but that does not mean that person has reached absolute enlightenment. People like Ravana were more enlightened than the vast majority of people, and this is why he had siddhis, but that does not mean Ravana was absolutely enlightened.

The only way for anybody to have proof that another human being is enlightened is if they can show you siddhis. Then it is clear they can apply samyama and control matter and therefore have reached a very high stage of mental control. This is only possible if they have done very intense sadhana/tapasya. They have reached all the prelimary stages of samadhi and have attained a very high level.

On the other hand if you accept a guru who cannot show you siddhis. How can you know for certain that he has reached a high level of sadhana? What if, ironically, he is actually even lesser developed than you are? In which case he is useless to you and cannot take you any higher than you already are.

 

[zenzero]

Friends,

Have mentioned this before to personal understanding every form is enlightened but most are unconscious to the fact as of NOW. Also to personal understanding Ravana was conscious of what he was doing. The distinction between two forms will remain till one's mind is active only when the mind becomes STILL does the oneness understood, realized.

LOve & rgds