Netanyahu's Win: A Reality check for Israeli liberals (?)

[gsa]

Not at this point in time, especially since Hamas is a religious organization that strongly believes in the Hadith dictate that once an area is Islamic, it must always remain Islamic. Obviously, this approach leaves no room for compromise.

Isn't this more or less the case with Likud when it comes to "Greater Israel" and the annexation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip? And Revisionist Zionism generally? Granted, I do think that Hamas would behave far worse if they had the power of the State of Israel, but I am not exactly inclined to suggest that the Israeli xenophobes are qualitatively different; it is more a question of degree, access to weaponry and alignment with the West and need not to offend our sensibilities.

 

[metis]

Isn't this more or less the case with Likud when it comes to "Greater Israel" and the annexation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip? And Revisionist Zionism generally? Granted, I do think that Hamas would behave far worse if they had the power of the State of Israel, but I am not exactly inclined to suggest that the Israeli xenophobes are qualitatively different; it is more a question of degree, access to weaponry and alignment with the West and need not to offend our sensibilities.

Likud takes a more hard-line approach, but this is done for a couple of reasons, one namely that they simply do not see a commitment towards peace from el-Fatah, but especially not from Hamas. Abbas has had opportunity to show good faith, yet walks away from the negotiating table. And I'll be frank with you in that I think Abbas thinks he's a "dead-man walking" if he were to sign any acceptance of Israel, and that probably would be the case. I do believe this is why Arafat wouldn't go along with a two-state solution either, much to the chagrin of even the Saudis.

But there's another factor with Likud, namely that they have had to rely on forming a coalition with the religious-right parties, which no doubt pulls Bibi and the Likud further to the right.

 

[gsa]

Likud takes a more hard-line approach, but this is done for a couple of reasons, one namely that they simply do not see a commitment towards peace from el-Fatah, but especially not from Hamas. Abbas has had opportunity to show good faith, yet walks away from the negotiating table. And I'll be frank with you in that I think Abbas thinks he's a "dead-man walking" if he were to sign any acceptance of Israel, and that probably would be the case. I do believe this is why Arafat wouldn't go along with a two-state solution either, much to the chagrin of even the Saudis.

But there's another factor with Likud, namely that they have had to rely on forming a coalition with the religious-right parties, which no doubt pulls Bibi and the Likud further to the right.

But this strikes me as speculative. You could make the same arguments about why various Palestinian factions take a hardline approach. I see no reason to apply a double standard.

 

[metis]

But this strikes me as speculative. You could make the same arguments about why various Palestinian factions take a hardline approach. I see no reason to apply a double standard.

Some Arab historians have said that "Arafat never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity", and Abbas isn't too far behind. I'm gonna tell you something, and that is that Abbas and his cronies are deathly afraid of Hamas, and for very good reason. Remember, for example, last summer when Hamas executed around 50 "Israeli spies"? Wanna take a guess what they really were in all likelihood, and it wasn't the first time that Hamas has done this?

BTW, please beware of false equivalencies, such as equating even Likud as being anything like Hamas because there's some really big differences-- as in BIG differences. I'm not a Likud fan, but they ain't Hamas.

 

[gsa]

Some Arab historians have said that "Arafat never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity", and Abbas isn't too far behind. I'm gonna tell you something, and that is that Abbas and his cronies are deathly afraid of Hamas, and for very good reason. Remember, for example, last summer when Hamas executed around 50 "Israeli spies"? Wanna take a guess what they really were in all likelihood, and it wasn't the first time that Hamas has done this?

BTW, please beware of false equivalencies, such as equating even Likud as being anything like Hamas because there's some really big differences-- as in BIG differences. I'm not a Likud fan, but they ain't Hamas.

I have heard the saying although I am not sure that is attributable to Arab historians. Regardless, I agree that they're competitors and Fatah has very good reasons to fear Hamas.

As far as equivalency, I am talking about irredentism. On that issue I don't think that this is a false equivalency. It is not a question of Likud's approach to, say, fundamental liberties, which is clearly different from Hamas. It is a question of their approach to Greater Israel.

 

[metis]

I have heard the saying although I am not sure that is attributable to Arab historians. Regardless, I agree that they're competitors and Fatah has very good reasons to fear Hamas.

As far as equivalency, I am talking about irredentism. On that issue I don't think that this is a false equivalency. It is not a question of Likud's approach to, say, fundamental liberties, which is clearly different from Hamas. It is a question of their approach to Greater Israel.

The first time I heard it was when an Egyptian historian was interviewed on CNN not too long after Arafat walked away from negotiations. I have no idea whether he was the originator of the saying, however.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

There is zero reason to believe that a Palestinian State would not devolve into a Hamas/Isis quagmire.

 

[metis]

There is zero reason to believe that a Palestinian State would not devolve into a Hamas/Isis quagmire.

Your gonna have to clarify that since there are two regions (WB & GS), no idea how they could compromise, no guarantee whatsoever that they couldn't "devolve" as we're seeing in numerous counties in the region.

Plus, and I really hate to say this, but I expect the region to get far worse in the future than what we see now. As the population continues to grow there, jobs becoming even less plentiful proportionally, unemployment increasing, weapons more powerful, where's there much room for optimism? GS is a basket case only kept alive through massive transfusions of money, as is the WB, which also reels from corruption.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Your gonna have to clarify that since there are two regions (WB & GS), no idea how they could compromise, no guarantee whatsoever that they couldn't "devolve" as we're seeing in numerous counties in the region.

I have no clue what that means.