Never trust a big brother religion

[Falvlun]

It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself. Subject opinion to coercion: whom will you make your inquisitors? Fallible men; men governed by bad passions, by private as well as public reasons. And why subject it to coercion? To produce uniformity. But is uniformity of opinion desireable? No more than of face and stature. Introduce the bed of Procrustes then, and as there is danger that the large men may beat the small, make us all of a size, by lopping the former and stretching the latter.

Dang, it makes me nervous questioning Thomas Jefferson, but I think there may be a false premise... well, at least its not telling the whole story.

He claims that the reason for government coercion is to produce uniformity. That may be true, but it certainly isn't the only reason. Especially when regarding religious governmental coercion. Other reasons could include the belief that God would bless a country that was following His laws, or the honest wish to limit sin and evil in the world. Please note that these are reasons the religious might give. I realize that they would result in more uniformity, but the reason wouldn't be to produce uniformity.

 

[AstralAkasha]

That definitely deserves an amen

I also believe God loves diversity.

If Spirit didn't like diversity, there wouldn't BE diversity

 

[Breathe]

Well, thanks for the hug!

You're welcome.

Perhaps I do have a lot of anger inside of me, but it comes more from my mind than it does from my heart. Anger is a state of "mind".

Well, I guess so. :-D Metaphorically, though!

I can't blame myself for disliking certain things. It is only human to have likes and dislikes and anger. It is one of the things I'm working on. I'm trying to be less human, really. Sometimes we just need to let a little "demon" out before we begin to see our lighter side.

I agree with you, very much so. It's only natural to have dislikes and anger, and it is also natural to have loves, fears and likes.

You might be right about Islam though, I don't really know.

It depends, how much have you studied Islam? I was similar to you, once. I found Christianity to be the worst, but then I found out more about Islam, and I didn't like it. I went to a church, and I enjoyed it - it depends on the people around you - for a long time, I hated Christianity and Christians because my sister-in-law is like, a über-conservative Christian. I found the nicest Christianity within Anglicanism.

I think my beef is more with just organized religion in general. It is too much like politics and I hate politics! Too many "leaders" seeking world conversion and domination.

LOL! Yeah, some religions can be like politics - and that's something I hate the idea of. However, not all organized religions are organized (i.e., Hinduism). :-D

I am more incline towards a personal journey and a connection with nature.

I prefer connection with the Divine to nature, although I do enjoy nature myself, I prefer to go beyond nature personally.

If humans were more like animals, we would not know anger or hatred, or even religion for that matter. We would be living in balance. The human mind is what perceives difference and causes dissension. We are all the same.

Very Neo-Pagan concept. Unfortunately, I disagree, as I share more beliefs with Hinduism in this area; I see animals as relying mostly on instinct and preservation, living mainly in fear of death. Animals are capable of violence, therefore, anger also - lions kill other lion's cubs, some animals know a concept of rape (great apes), etc. Humans are animals, and that's part of the problem. It's because we are capable of thinking of abstract concepts that we have ideas about peace, liberty and justice - animals work by "alpha" and "omega".

We all have a dark side. It is the human mind. We all have one.

Darkness can be overcome with light. The mind is not darkness, but darkness dwells within the mind. Just be positive, and look for goodness.

 

[Runewolf1973]

You're welcome.


Well, I guess so. :-D Metaphorically, though!


I agree with you, very much so. It's only natural to have dislikes and anger, and it is also natural to have loves, fears and likes.


It depends, how much have you studied Islam? I was similar to you, once. I found Christianity to be the worst, but then I found out more about Islam, and I didn't like it. I went to a church, and I enjoyed it - it depends on the people around you - for a long time, I hated Christianity and Christians because my sister-in-law is like, a über-conservative Christian. I found the nicest Christianity within Anglicanism.


LOL! Yeah, some religions can be like politics - and that's something I hate the idea of. However, not all organized religions are organized (i.e., Hinduism). :-D


I prefer connection with the Divine to nature, although I do enjoy nature myself, I prefer to go beyond nature personally.


Very Neo-Pagan concept. Unfortunately, I disagree, as I share more beliefs with Hinduism in this area; I see animals as relying mostly on instinct and preservation, living mainly in fear of death. Animals are capable of violence, therefore, anger also - lions kill other lion's cubs, some animals know a concept of rape (great apes), etc. Humans are animals, and that's part of the problem. It's because we are capable of thinking of abstract concepts that we have ideas about peace, liberty and justice - animals work by "alpha" and "omega".


Darkness can be overcome with light. The mind is not darkness, but darkness dwells within the mind. Just be positive, and look for goodness.

I can appreciate you're opinion. We all have different ways of perceiving the "divine" and that is I think a good thing. I don't believe that the "darkness" is necessarily a bad thing. It is just the a part of yet another duality in nature. We are capable of both good and bad, just like (some) animals can be, but as humans, we use the mind as a tool to manipulate and control. We create evil with the mind and sometimes use it to force our will on others.

 

[Breathe]

I can appreciate you're opinion. We all have different ways of perceiving the "divine" and that is I think a good thing. I don't believe that the "darkness" is necessarily a bad thing. It is just the a part of yet another duality in nature. We are capable of both good and bad, just like (some) animals can be, but as humans, we use the mind as a tool to manipulate and control. We create evil with the mind and sometimes use it to force our will on others.

I agree
However, some people are non-dualists, don't forget.

 

[doppelganger]

Other reasons could include the belief that God would bless a country that was following His laws, or the honest wish to limit sin and evil in the world. Please note that these are reasons the religious might give. I realize that they would result in more uniformity, but the reason wouldn't be to produce uniformity.

If the blessing was intended to reward the country for "following His laws" then the purpose would still be to create uniformity.

 

[Falvlun]

If the blessing was intended to reward the country for "following His laws" then the purpose would still be to create uniformity.

No, I still disagree. Uniformity would have been the result, not the purpose.

 

[doppelganger]

No, I still disagree. Uniformity would have been the result, not the purpose.

The ulitmate purpose is "God's good will". The immediate purpose would be uniformity in order to accomplish it. Uniformity is still the immediate purpose.

 

[tomspug]

The ulitmate purpose is "God's good will". The immediate purpose would be uniformity in order to accomplish it. Uniformity is still the immediate purpose.

If God created humanity, then God created variety. God's will is the opposite of uniformity. The REAL uniformity is sin.

 

[doppelganger]

The REAL uniformity is sin.

And uniformity is the REAL sin.

 

[tomspug]

And uniformity is the REAL sin.

Of course, I agree. Which is why I created this thread.

 

[doppelganger]

Of course, I agree. Which is why I created this thread.

Do you or don't you want other people to adopt your preferred forms of thought that they might be "saved"?

 

[tomspug]

Do you or don't you want other people to adopt your preferred forms of thought that they might be "saved"?

No. I don't.

Christianity is about a personal relationship with God, nothing more, nothing less. It has nothing to do with "preferred forms of thought". Let's take worship as an example. In my mind, there is no definition for worship, no DEFINED form or thought for what it is, other than dialogue with God.

I don't want people to agree with me. I just want them to know God.

If I recommended a good book to someone, I'm not attempting to make them experience the book in the same way, to think the same things about it, feel the same things about it. I am recommending the book because it is a GOOD BOOK, and I believe that reading the book would be a positive, learning, growing experience.

Are there Big Brother forms of Christianity? Yes. But that is not my religion.

 

[Falvlun]

The ulitmate purpose is "God's good will". The immediate purpose would be uniformity in order to accomplish it. Uniformity is still the immediate purpose.

Nah. Uniformity is the mechanism. Mechanism is not purpose.

Say I want to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. In the process of making my sandwich, I dirty a butter knife. My purpose was never to dirty the butter knife, but a butter knife must be used to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. It is a means to an end, but not the end in itself. The butter knife is part of the mechanism for making a pb and j; the dirty butter knife is a by-product of that mechanism.

It is ludicrous to believe that the dirty butter knife was the purpose of my actions and yet that is exactly what you are saying. Every result is not indicative of the purpose.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

There's a difference between a religion that gives counsel and one that controls your life.

For example, should you trust your religion if it tells you not to listen or to dialog with others, especially people whom are considered "enemies"? Should you trust your religion if it gives itself the responsibility of your personal well-being and safety?

Maybe we like having a big brother/mother hen religion that takes care of us. It's a very popular format for cults too! Your every need is met as long as you stick to the rules, otherwise YOU become the enemy... I think that one of the greatest evils in the world can certainly refer to itself as a "religion", because it convinces people that it is GOOD to harm others, even themselves, because the religion itself becomes the greater good.

I suppose it helps if one doesn't check their brain at the door.