New Evidence Found To Show Humans Came From Fish

[ImmortalFlame]

I would echo what you wrote to say you are projecting.

My basis for this is that I answer questions at this forum in love to promote others' well-being. I'm unsure why a skeptic or atheist/agnostic would spend so much time posting at a religious forum.

No argument, just another pathetic personal attack.

You're finished. If you're this incapable or unwilling to debate, why are you even here?

 

[BilliardsBall]

That may be enough for you, but it's not convincing to me. The one prophecy you provided for me wasn't nearly as spectacular as you initially claimed it was.

The ancient Greek myths are unique too, but that doesn't mean they're true.

There are hundreds of spectacular, fulfilled prophecies. Hundreds.

The ancient Greek myths do not include specific fulfilled prophecies that we can evidence in history, like the inauguration of the second Israel.

 

[SkepticThinker]

There are hundreds of spectacular, fulfilled prophecies. Hundreds.

So you claim. There are just as many unfulfilled ones too, you just choose to focus on the ones you think have been fulfilled.

The ancient Greek myths do not include specific fulfilled prophecies that we can evidence in history, like the inauguration of the second Israel.

Neither does your Bible.

 

[gnostic]

A simple Google search reveals thousands of homo sapiens alone who are born without limbs due to genetic evolution/mutation. The fossil record speaks most eloquently of creation.

Or perhaps, if you wish to continue this line with me, so I can learn, explain why there are literally billions of fossils in museums and millions of missing-limb and partially formed species on Earth now, but not in the record. It's not my intention to make an argument from silence but the silence is eloquent.

Now you are being ignorant fool., BilliardsBall.

You still don't understand evolution.

Evolution is not about a single case of some individuals with missing limb here, and missing limb there, from different part of the world.

Evolution is about "population", not about individuals.

If you have whole population of humans in one regions and this has been happening for generation, all with missing right arms, then may be, just may be you have a case for your arguments.

But you don't. These missing-limb are sporadic, don't belong in the same region or family tree, which make it more of deformities, not of evolution.

 

[gnostic]

The ancient Greek myths do not include specific fulfilled prophecies that we can evidence in history, like the inauguration of the second Israel.

Sorry, but here is where you are wrong.

There are no evidences to support Moses leaving Egypt with a population of former Israelite slaves, no evidences of massive camps at the foot of Mount Sinai, and no evidences of Joshua leading the Israelites to invade Canaan.

And there are no evidences to Saul being the first king of Israel.

Everything about the Exodus and Joshua were written centuries after their supposed events, around the 7th to 5th centuries BCE.

There are no eyewitnesses accounts to the Exodus or to Joshua, no independent historical sources, and no physical archaeological evidences to support either mass liberation and exodus, or to the invasion of Canaan.

If the books were written during the Iron Age, then any prophecy in Exodus and 1 Samuel are not considered as evidences, because the prophecies were written AFTER the (supposed) events.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Sorry, but here is where you are wrong.

There are no evidences to support Moses leaving Egypt with a population of former Israelite slaves, no evidences of massive camps at the foot of Mount Sinai, and no evidences of Joshua leading the Israelites to invade Canaan.

And there are no evidences to Saul being the first king of Israel.

Everything about the Exodus and Joshua were written centuries after their supposed events, around the 7th to 5th centuries BCE.

There are no eyewitnesses accounts to the Exodus or to Joshua, no independent historical sources, and no physical archaeological evidences to support either mass liberation and exodus, or to the invasion of Canaan.

If the books were written during the Iron Age, then any prophecy in Exodus and 1 Samuel are not considered as evidences, because the prophecies were written AFTER the (supposed) events.

How can there be "no eyewitness accounts to the Exodus or Joshua"? Aren't the books called "Exodus" and "Joshua" purported to be eyewitness accounts? Isn't another way of restating your objections, "Sure, there are 66 Bible books written by 40 persons claiming to be eyewitnesses over 1,500 years, but why should we respect the thousands of pages of documents they have written, all on the same themes?"

 

[Looncall]

How can there be "no eyewitness accounts to the Exodus or Joshua"? Aren't the books called "Exodus" and "Joshua" purported to be eyewitness accounts? Isn't another way of restating your objections, "Sure, there are 66 Bible books written by 40 persons claiming to be eyewitnesses over 1,500 years, but why should we respect the thousands of pages of documents they have written, all on the same themes?"

Easy. Many of the purported events would have left traces. Those traces are absent. Record-keeping societies active at the purported times of events left no word of those events. Several continued through a claimed global flood without disruption.

The bible is clearly a collection of folk tales and tribal and religious propaganda. One need not respect the scribblings of ignorant savages.

Those writings are considered holy only due to the con games of clerics.

 

[Polymath257]

So you claim. There are just as many unfulfilled ones too, you just choose to focus on the ones you think have been fulfilled.

Not to mention, interpret them in such a way that they are fulfilled even if that isn't the original meaning.

 

[Polymath257]

How can there be "no eyewitness accounts to the Exodus or Joshua"? Aren't the books called "Exodus" and "Joshua" purported to be eyewitness accounts? Isn't another way of restating your objections, "Sure, there are 66 Bible books written by 40 persons claiming to be eyewitnesses over 1,500 years, but why should we respect the thousands of pages of documents they have written, all on the same themes?"

Exodus is no more an eye-witness account than a book written today about 15th century Italy would be. It was written hundreds of years after the events described.

 

[gnostic]

How can there be "no eyewitness accounts to the Exodus or Joshua"? Aren't the books called "Exodus" and "Joshua" purported to be eyewitness accounts?

You are not using your brains here.

If it was eyewitness accounts, then those witnesses would be contemporary to who ever wrote these books. They are not.

We have no evidences whatsoever that the Bronze Age Israelites wrote anything down in the 2nd millennium BCE.

The book of Joshua is one of those books, like Deuteronomy, were written in the time of King Josiah, from the late 7th century BCE, to the time of exile in the 6th century BCE. Although the Deuteronomy is listed under the Torah, it was certainly not written by Moses, unless you believe that Moses could write about his own death.

From Deuteronomy to Joshua, they were written centuries after the events supposedly took place in the Bronze Age, so it can't be eyewitness accounts.

There are no books of Genesis, Exodus (and others that were attributed to Moses), Joshua, Judges or Samuel in the 2nd millennium BCE.

Second.

According to 1 Kings 6:1, when king Solomon had the construction started with the Temple, in the 4th year of his reign, the exodus took place 480 years earlier:

6 In the four hundred eightieth year after the Israelites came out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel, in the month of Ziv, which is the second month, he began to build the house of the Lord.

I did a calculation of the reigns of rulers of two kingdoms, working backward from the Babylonians destroying the Temple in 586 BCE, all the ways to king Solomon. See Timeline of the Israelite kingdoms.

Supposedly, Solomon ruled for 40 years, which means he started about 970 BCE, and that would mean 4th year of his reign in 967 or 966 BCE.

So adding this 480 to about 966 BCE (Temple foundation), which would mean the exodus is dated to about 1446 BCE.

1446 BCE would mean that Moses was born in 1526 BCE and died in 1406 BCE. And 1406 BCE, that would mean Joshua began his invasion shortly afterward.

According to Exodus 1:11, the pharaoh had the Israelite slaves building the cites of Pithom and Rameses in Goshen.

I know for a fact, that neither cities were built at this time (1526 BCE).

Pithom, in Egyptian known as Per-Atum, meaning the "House of Atum", and Atum was a creator and sun god. Per or "house" can refer to an Egyptian city, palace or temple.

In the 19th century, archaeologists found 2 sites, just 8 miles apart, that have the inscriptions "Pr-Itm" (hence, Per-Atum or Pithom) at Tell El Maskhuta and Tell El Retaba.

Evidences showed that was only occupied in 18th to 17th centuries BCE, during the time of the Hyksos occupation of northern Egypt. So that least, a couple of centuries before 1524 BCE.

And as to Rameses in Exodus, that was at least 500 years after Per-Atum. Rameses is known as Pi-Ramesses (House of Rameses), named after 19th dynasty's greatest king - Ramesses II (1279 - 1290 BCE).

So neither cities were built in the date provided in 2 Kings 6:1.

Third.

1406 BCE is not date of any invasion into Canaan.

From 1446 to 1406 BCE, the 40 years wandering, would be paralleled to the time of 18th dynasty of Thutmose III (1479 - 1425 BCE) and his son Amenhotep II (1427 - 1397 BCE). Canaan and Syria were conquered by Thutmose, and Canaan remained his son's control.

So Joshua couldn't have led the invasion after Moses death in 1406 BCE.

Lastly, there are no evidences that the Israelites written anything remotely "Hebrew".

The earliest written language in Hebrew alphabet, is what experts called palaeo-Hebrew alphabet, which flourished between 10th century BCE to 5th century BCE. Although paleo-Hebrew can be seen as late as 2nd century CE, Aramaic alphabet became more popular throughout the Levant, by 5th century BCE.

No scriptures of what you call "Old Testament" in any shape or form exist in the Bronze Age, where Abraham and Moses supposedly flourished in 2nd millennium BCE.

AND, no paleo-Hebrew inscriptions were ever found before the 10th century BCE.

The oldest writings in Hebrew, were inscriptions found on the Zayit Stone and the stone tablet known as the Gezer Calendar, both of them have been dated to the 10th century BCE. None of them related to the bible.

The oldest evidence of the bible, is the badly fragmented Ketef Hinnom amulet, known as the Silver Scroll, dated to 700 BCE, which contained a couple of verses from Numbers.

Judging by all of these points, I doubt very much on historicity of the Exodus and Joshua, since all records and evidences are against the Old Testament, regarding to mass liberation and odyssey, plus invasion.

You only get some parts of the 2 Kings books that match with history and archaeology.

You really don't understand the concepts of eyewitnesses, do you?

If the books were written centuries after the events supposed to take place, then they aren't eyewitness' accounts.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Not to mention, interpret them in such a way that they are fulfilled even if that isn't the original meaning.

Yes, that too!

 

[BilliardsBall]

Easy. Many of the purported events would have left traces. Those traces are absent. Record-keeping societies active at the purported times of events left no word of those events. Several continued through a claimed global flood without disruption.

The bible is clearly a collection of folk tales and tribal and religious propaganda. One need not respect the scribblings of ignorant savages.

Those writings are considered holy only due to the con games of clerics.

Many of the purported events have left traces.

The issue may be timing here. You claim "several continued through a claimed flood without distruption," yet I would 1) date the Flood earlier than your presumptive date 2) consider some of the evidence given for dates by archaeology specious.

 

[BilliardsBall]

You are not using your brains here.

If it was eyewitness accounts, then those witnesses would be contemporary to who ever wrote these books. They are not.

We have no evidences whatsoever that the Bronze Age Israelites wrote anything down in the 2nd millennium BCE.

The book of Joshua is one of those books, like Deuteronomy, were written in the time of King Josiah, from the late 7th century BCE, to the time of exile in the 6th century BCE. Although the Deuteronomy is listed under the Torah, it was certainly not written by Moses, unless you believe that Moses could write about his own death.

From Deuteronomy to Joshua, they were written centuries after the events supposedly took place in the Bronze Age, so it can't be eyewitness accounts.

There are no books of Genesis, Exodus (and others that were attributed to Moses), Joshua, Judges or Samuel in the 2nd millennium BCE.

Second.

According to 1 Kings 6:1, when king Solomon had the construction started with the Temple, in the 4th year of his reign, the exodus took place 480 years earlier:



I did a calculation of the reigns of rulers of two kingdoms, working backward from the Babylonians destroying the Temple in 586 BCE, all the ways to king Solomon. See Timeline of the Israelite kingdoms.

Supposedly, Solomon ruled for 40 years, which means he started about 970 BCE, and that would mean 4th year of his reign in 967 or 966 BCE.

So adding this 480 to about 966 BCE (Temple foundation), which would mean the exodus is dated to about 1446 BCE.

1446 BCE would mean that Moses was born in 1526 BCE and died in 1406 BCE. And 1406 BCE, that would mean Joshua began his invasion shortly afterward.

According to Exodus 1:11, the pharaoh had the Israelite slaves building the cites of Pithom and Rameses in Goshen.

I know for a fact, that neither cities were built at this time (1526 BCE).

Pithom, in Egyptian known as Per-Atum, meaning the "House of Atum", and Atum was a creator and sun god. Per or "house" can refer to an Egyptian city, palace or temple.

In the 19th century, archaeologists found 2 sites, just 8 miles apart, that have the inscriptions "Pr-Itm" (hence, Per-Atum or Pithom) at Tell El Maskhuta and Tell El Retaba.

Evidences showed that was only occupied in 18th to 17th centuries BCE, during the time of the Hyksos occupation of northern Egypt. So that least, a couple of centuries before 1524 BCE.

And as to Rameses in Exodus, that was at least 500 years after Per-Atum. Rameses is known as Pi-Ramesses (House of Rameses), named after 19th dynasty's greatest king - Ramesses II (1279 - 1290 BCE).

So neither cities were built in the date provided in 2 Kings 6:1.

Third.

1406 BCE is not date of any invasion into Canaan.

From 1446 to 1406 BCE, the 40 years wandering, would be paralleled to the time of 18th dynasty of Thutmose III (1479 - 1425 BCE) and his son Amenhotep II (1427 - 1397 BCE). Canaan and Syria were conquered by Thutmose, and Canaan remained his son's control.

So Joshua couldn't have led the invasion after Moses death in 1406 BCE.

Lastly, there are no evidences that the Israelites written anything remotely "Hebrew".

The earliest written language in Hebrew alphabet, is what experts called palaeo-Hebrew alphabet, which flourished between 10th century BCE to 5th century BCE. Although paleo-Hebrew can be seen as late as 2nd century CE, Aramaic alphabet became more popular throughout the Levant, by 5th century BCE.

No scriptures of what you call "Old Testament" in any shape or form exist in the Bronze Age, where Abraham and Moses supposedly flourished in 2nd millennium BCE.

AND, no paleo-Hebrew inscriptions were ever found before the 10th century BCE.

The oldest writings in Hebrew, were inscriptions found on the Zayit Stone and the stone tablet known as the Gezer Calendar, both of them have been dated to the 10th century BCE. None of them related to the bible.

The oldest evidence of the bible, is the badly fragmented Ketef Hinnom amulet, known as the Silver Scroll, dated to 700 BCE, which contained a couple of verses from Numbers.

Judging by all of these points, I doubt very much on historicity of the Exodus and Joshua, since all records and evidences are against the Old Testament, regarding to mass liberation and odyssey, plus invasion.

You only get some parts of the 2 Kings books that match with history and archaeology.

You really don't understand the concepts of eyewitnesses, do you?

If the books were written centuries after the events supposed to take place, then they aren't eyewitness' accounts.

I will address what you wrote but I don't appreciate rude statements like "You really don't understand the concepts of eyewitnesses, do you?". I speak to you respectfully, and every time you resort to name calling I think, "Yes, it's true, skeptics are angry, rude people and they are not open minded." Please be open-minded instead.

Yes, I understand that Solomon likely would have ruled around 1,000 BC and that we would be in a difficult placement with Pithom and Rameses. Are you aware of the multiple sources I've read repositioning those cities to others?

Have you found the original Bible manuscripts and were they in Paleo-Hebrew?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Exodus is no more an eye-witness account than a book written today about 15th century Italy would be. It was written hundreds of years after the events described.

My actual statement was, "Aren't the books called "Exodus" and "Joshua" purported to be eyewitness accounts?"

What is your evidence that they were written so late? You haven't found original Bible manuscripts, have you? People have been seeking them for some time!

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

The old fish to humans story got some new legs today (get it? new legs ha ha). Maybe a pictogram will help.

The evolution scientists gave us this apes-to-human story because people couldn't absorb the "truth" all at once. It's considered by blacks to be racist, for one. I do not see transitional fossils for another. It must be the evolutionists sixth sense. The see the evolution dead everywhere.

This was never a depiction by scientist! It was created by a news journalist.

Today, the evolution scientists must think we can be fed the whole "truth" now. They're telling us the "fish" story now. This appears in Nature, so it must really be serious.

"Scientists find 'oldest human ancestor'

Researchers have discovered the earliest known ancestor of humans - along with a vast range of other species.

They say that fossilised traces of the 540-million-year-old creature are "exquisitely well preserved".

The microscopic sea animal is the earliest known step on the evolutionary path that led to fish and - eventually - to humans.

Details of the discovery from central China appear in Nature journal.

The research team says that Saccorhytus is the most primitive example of a category of animals called "deuterostomes" which are common ancestors of a broad range of species, including vertebrates (backboned animals).

Saccorhytus was about a millimetre in size, and is thought to have lived between grains of sand on the sea bed.

Scientists find 'oldest human ancestor' - BBC News