New Liberal Mosque Set Up in Berlin

[LuisDantas]

Sadly, it doesn't really mean anything originating in the "western world" but simply serves to underscore the deep-seated hatreds prevalent in the "Muslim world" where this would be quite impossible.

I would say that this underscoring means quite a lot. Sadly, probably not what most Muslims would hope for, nor what I understand @Kirran to be hoping for, but still a very significant fact on its own way.

 

[LuisDantas]

It's really a beginner's words
All the previous verses speak of fighting against injustice and against the aggressor and not against the different
Google will not help you in this
You have to learn

While so many other verses speak of how important it is not to trust non-Muslims, eh?

Quite the combo.

 

[LukeS]

They forgot the bar.

 

[LukeS]

As a member of traditional mosque, and a loser by many of Weatern societies standards, one of the things I like is the inclusiveness and the spirit of brotherhood. I think with women in the mosque, especially with liberal dress codes, there'll be cliquishness and sexual tensions. I read that with the Westernisaiton of Tibet, there emerged a class of cool kids, aloof from the losers, dressed in all the right gear, with the women, the goods etc.

Part of the social neuroscience for me in a traditional setting is that we're all engaged together as one in salat (worship) with a collective focus on God, not on the girl in front etc. Although I accept the legal right in Germany for such a mosque, I don't think it will have the spiritual or psychological relaxation of a traditional setting. Not for my type.

My mosque may seem like a "mens culb" though, for the outsider. I don't know what to say to that, excepting I can appreciate what I know, and am doubtful that Id have the same experience in a mixed liberal setting.

And [mention, O Muhammad], when Allah took a covenant from those who were given the Scripture, [saying], "You must make it clear to the people and not conceal it." But they threw it away behind their backs and exchanged it for a small price. And wretched is that which they purchased.

I avoid all kinds of trendy eateries... where I sense egotistic indulgence and standards for inclusion like what is your IQ, what degree you have, whos who, who you know, what age you are, what job you have etc. This for me is part of the pusrchacing power of secular liberalism at present. The GDP of the spirit of the age. Noise, clamour and chit chat.

The mutual rivalry for piling up (the good things of this world) diverts you (from the more serious things)

The psychologist J Haidt argued in "The Happiness Hypothesis", iirc, focus on absolute well being, not keeping up with the Jones. In that sense a Traditional mosque is a bit like meditation and yoga, where these psychological absorbtion.


Verily, the Promise of Allah is true, let not then this (worldly) present life deceive you, nor let the chief deceiver (Satan) deceive you about Allah.

In Islam there are bound up concepts of tranquillity, sincerity and certainty. With all those female distractions, I think that there'll be a lack of focus, harming sincerity in the religion. Its dependent on the tranquillity, like a smooth ride needs a smooth road. Muhammed said the softeness (or pleasure IIRC) of his eyes was salat i.e. prayer.


I don't know much about feminine psychology, but there's one song (by The Weather Girls) called "Its raining men" where the ideal "has gotta be strong, gotta be tough and gotta be fresh from the fight". That's against the Islamic ideal as a rule. Islam is more of a strategic religion, not a brut force method. In a mixed setting...

"Liberal mosques" seem like a cultural projection of an elitist enlightened political set, who 'know better' how to run things. Rather than a grass roots movement from the bottom up, its a top down thing, liberalism from above. They'll probably have a good vibe for some people, I'm not denying that.

For a Muslim, the closest we come to paradise is in the mosque and the closest we come to Allah is in sajda (prostration).

Verily in the heavens and the earth are signs for those who believe

 

[moon light]

An honest question here... the way the above quote reads, does it imply that if someone did "fight against you on account of religion" or did "drive you out of your home", Allah then forbids you to deal justly and kindly with them? I can understand the "kindly" part. But when is it okay not to deal with someone "justly?"

This is a misunderstanding
Islam is not required to be unequal to anyone
If you read the all the Surah you will know that he talks about the moderates = and asks not to ally with them and not unfairness
There is a general rule in the Qur'an, Surah 5: 8

It means that you can not be unfair to anyone because of your differences with you

 

[moon light]

If it is so difficult to understand then that would be a very good reason for re-writing it to modern literary standards.

It is not difficult to understand
But you have to be honest in your search

 

[moon light]

Actually, yes. Toward being rational and civilized is indeed the right direction.

Rational and civilzed
These are relative concepts that depend on the person's concept of them

 

[Kirran]

@moon light are you familiar with multiquote feature? It allows you to quote multiple people in one post rather than having to make lots of posts in a row.

To use it, click the '+ Quote' button on the post you want to quote, then next to the reply box at the bottom of the page click 'Insert Quotes' to put all the quotes into one post, which you can then write your responses in.

 

[moon light]

It is a simple historical fact that religions often influence and originate other religions.

I would also argue that questioning traditions and caring for their relevance and meaning is one of the main principles of healthy religion - or for that matter, of healthy life.

with my respect
This may fit the philosophy
But religion is another thing

 

[LuisDantas]

It is not difficult to understand
But you have to be honest in your search

What if a honest search does not reach the results you are hoping for?

with my respect
This may fit the philosophy
But religion is another thing

Religion needs to rise over dogma and tradition for tradition's sake if it is to be worth any attention.

 

[moon light]

@moon light are you familiar with multiquote feature? It allows you to quote multiple people in one post rather than having to make lots of posts in a row.

To use it, click the '+ Quote' button on the post you want to quote, then next to the reply box at the bottom of the page click 'Insert Quotes' to put all the quotes into one post, which you can then write your responses in.

thank you

 

[moon light]

What if a honest search does not reach the results you are hoping for?


Religion needs to rise over dogma and tradition for tradition's sake if it is to be worth any attention.

I accept all that is faithful

 

[LuisDantas]

I accept all that is faithful

That being...?

 

[moon light]

Religion always comes to change traditions
But the dogma does not change

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

It's really a beginner's words
All the previous verses speak of fighting against injustice and against the aggressor and not against the different
Google will not help you in this
You have to learn

I'd like to dispute this here but, as the OP has said, this thread is not really the appropriate place to do that.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I think with women in the mosque, especially with liberal dress codes, there'll be cliquishness and sexual tensions.

Pretty much almost anywhere you go there is a good chance of finding cliques. And funny how you mention these "liberal dress codes" that allegedly cause sexual tension, yet the Secular Western world holds men accountable for their own behaviors and actions, whereas Conservative Middle Eastern Muslim nations hold women responsible for such actions, yet despite having very strict dress codes and rules of conduct for women. I don't care much for Liberal ideology, but I strongly stand with them that even if a woman is naked, the only responsible for her being raped is the one who rapes her. Surely your Allah can understand such a thing, that no matter how a woman is dressed, the man is an agent of free will and is not forced to act upon such things.

I avoid all kinds of trendy eateries... where I sense egotistic indulgence and standards for inclusion like what is your IQ, what degree you have, whos who, who you know, what age you are, what job you have etc. This for me is part of the pusrchacing power of secular liberalism at present. The GDP of the spirit of the age. Noise, clamour and chit chat.

I don't go to trendy eateries because their lackluster foods are not worth the price. No one has ever been concerned about my IQ, my degrees, or anything such as that. More like a Capitalist distractions to keep people's minds off of how bad things actually are than some form of secular liberalism. Not too much different than the many holidays and public events offered to the Roman citizens to keep them distracted from the empire crumbling around them.

"Liberal mosques" seem like a cultural projection of an elitist enlightened political set, who 'know better' how to run things.

I don't know much about feminine psychology, but there's one song (by The Weather Girls) called "Its raining men" where the ideal "has gotta be strong, gotta be tough and gotta be fresh from the fight". That's against the Islamic ideal as a rule. Islam is more of a strategic religion, not a brut force method. In a mixed setting...

The lyrics you quote is actually the Bonnie Tyler song "I Need a Hero," not the Weather Girls' "It's Raining Men."

 

[sayak83]

Sadly, it doesn't really mean anything originating in the "western world" but simply serves to underscore the deep-seated hatreds prevalent in the "Muslim world" where this would be quite impossible.

But Islamic population in the West is on the rise. I believe West will become a flourishing center of Islam itself, and the question is what kind of Islam it will be. (Same goes for India, even more).

 

[Kirran]

But Islamic population in the West is on the rise. I believe West will become a flourishing center of Islam itself, and the question is what kind of Islam it will be. (Same goes for India, even more).

I do see some strong representation within progressive Islam from India - do you think it can successfully rival the strength of the Wahhabi movement there?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

This is a misunderstanding
Islam is not required to be unequal to anyone
If you read the all the Surah you will know that he talks about the moderates = and asks not to ally with them and not unfairness
There is a general rule in the Qur'an, Surah 5: 8

It means that you can not be unfair to anyone because of your differences with you

I see. It just seems like a strange wording choice then:

Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those...

Stating the above just before a specific scenario of injustice perpetrated against you would sort of imply that there may actually be times when Allah does "forbid you to deal justly and kindly" with someone. I don't know why it would ever need to be stated that you are "not forbidden" (a double negative) to deal justly and kindly with someone who has done "X" to you, unless there is another time when "Y" is done to you in which you are forbidden to deal justly and kindly with someone. In other words, if Allah always expects just and kind behavior from his followers, then why state the reverse? What state "this isn't forbidden" if you meant "this is how it should be?"

 

[Kirran]

If you would take debates on violence within Islam elsewhere, please. I don't want to start accusing people of spamming.