New Ohio law allows students to be scientifically wrong.

[dybmh]

This appears to be the section you are talking about?

"
Sec. 3320.03.
No school district board of education, governing authority of a community school established under Chapter 3314. of the Revised Code, governing body of a STEM school established under Chapter 3326. of the Revised Code, or board of trustees of a college-preparatory boarding school established under Chapter 3328. of the Revised Code shall prohibit a student from engaging in religious expression in the completion of homework, artwork, or other written or oral assignments. Assignment grades and scores shall be calculated using ordinary academic standards of substance and relevance,including any legitimate pedagogical concerns, and shall not penalize or reward a student based on the religious content of a student's work.
"​

I'm not sure I understand the problem if: "Assignment grades and scores shall be calculated using ordinary academic standards of substance and relevance including any legitimate pedagogical concerns, and shall not penalize or reward a student based on the religious content of a student's work."

That means that you cannot reward a student who gives a religious answer to a scientific question concerning evolution. Does it not?

Am I missing something? Can you provide more context for the issue? Or explain what I'm missing?

The problem is more apparent from the teacher's perspective. It will be a problem if a parent disputes the way a teacher grades their child's work.

Dealing with parents is part of being a teacher.

Not to mention it's a STEM school, STEM isn't religion. Religion is not STEM.

"STEM is a curriculum based on the idea of educating students in four specific disciplines — science, technology, engineering and mathematics"

( source )

 

[Nakosis]

And, of course, every Republican supported this bill.

So do you blame the politicians or the voters?

You want to keep your job to got to keep your constituents happy.

 

[We Never Know]

The Ohio House passed a law that says that students cannot be counted wrong, even in a science class, if their answers are in line with their religion:

Ohio House passes bill allowing student answers to be scientifically wrong due to religion

In other words, the suggestion is that science teachers are not in the business of teaching science, but in catering to religious dogma.

Why anyone would consider this to be appropriate is beyond me.

It's kind of like a participation trophy where even if you lose you still get a trophy. IMO participation trophies need to go away.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

And, of course, every Republican supported this bill.

But then, so did Muslims. Are you gonna talk bad about them?

I think you must be Islamophobic if you talk bad about Muslims (who are against nearly everything libs value).

Any law that is constitutional has to apply to people you like and people you hate.

Perhaps a bigger question regarding this bill is......what exactly is the intent? Students are already free to express their religious beliefs in school, so what exactly is the point of the bill? Seems to me like it might be trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

Perhaps you overestimate the degree of acceptance children have in the classroom in regards to their religion?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/harra_sc.htm

Teachers in the past have both been involved in trying to take away children's religion as they have been trying to sell them on a certain one.

 

[Quintessence]

The problem is more apparent from the teacher's perspective. It will be a problem if a parent disputes the way a teacher grades their child's work.

Dealing with parents is part of being a teacher.

This is where I see the real problems cropping up - with parents. Not having to deal with parents that much is part of what I love about being in higher ed....

 

[tas8831]

The Ohio House passed a law that says that students cannot be counted wrong, even in a science class, if their answers are in line with their religion:

Ohio House passes bill allowing student answers to be scientifically wrong due to religion

In other words, the suggestion is that science teachers are not in the business of teaching science, but in catering to religious dogma.

Why anyone would consider this to be appropriate is beyond me.

And the dumbing down of America continues.

Thank you, America-hating GOP!

 

[wizanda]

Those following the beliefs of @wizanda will have a field day in propagation. Particularly those doing computer science.
I can just imagine how questions on the CPU will be answered.

Thank you for tagging me.

On the one hand as a person who would like to fix humanity into something more evolved, which would take us all using precise language that defines our topic, and we're now told not to do that - as the war is now reversed, where science now stifles religious evolution.

In my opinion.

 

[tas8831]

But then, so did Muslims. Are you gonna talk bad about them?

I think you must be Islamophobic if you talk bad about Muslims (who are against nearly everything libs value).

Any law that is constitutional has to apply to people you like and people you hate.

What do "libs" value?

 

[tas8831]

And, of course, every Republican supported this bill.

They love the un-educated.

 

[dybmh]

But then, so did Muslims. Are you gonna talk bad about them?

I think you must be Islamophobic if you talk bad about Muslims (who are against nearly everything libs value).

Any law that is constitutional has to apply to people you like and people you hate.

I'm only posting this question, because of the implied 'check-mate' in your reply.

Here's a link to votes: House Bill 164 - Votes | The Ohio Legislature

How do you know which of these people are Muslim? You don't.

But the party designation is clearly stated.

 

[dybmh]

This is where I see the real problems cropping up - with parents. Not having to deal with parents that much is part of what I love about being in higher ed....

... I couldn't be a teacher for multiple reasons. Lack of patience is at the top of the list.

 

[robocop (actually)]

The Ohio House passed a law that says that students cannot be counted wrong, even in a science class, if their answers are in line with their religion:

Ohio House passes bill allowing student answers to be scientifically wrong due to religion

In other words, the suggestion is that science teachers are not in the business of teaching science, but in catering to religious dogma.

Why anyone would consider this to be appropriate is beyond me.

conflicted....

 

[Polymath257]

Let me give an example. Suppose the class is discussing the evolution of humans. They talk about the known ancestors, the time when they existed, etc.

Then, the question comes up 'When did Homo erectus live'?

A student answers that they lived fewer than 10,000 years ago. The question is graded (accurately) as incorrect. The student protests, claiming that their religious belief is that the earth is fewer than 10,000 years old.

So, the question becomes 'whose academic standards'? Is it the standards of the Institute for Creation Research, or is it the standards of the American Association for the Advancement of Science? is it the standards of their religion, of the standards set our by scientific organizations?

What if the parents sue the teacher? Will the school support that teacher?

And, of course, this comes in a long line of 'teaching the controversy' when there *isn't* any actual, scientific controversy. So, again, whose standards?

This is an incredibly bad law and simply promotes the idea that science can be ignored if you or your religion disagrees with it.

 

[Polymath257]

This is where I see the real problems cropping up - with parents. Not having to deal with parents that much is part of what I love about being in higher ed....

Agreed. I watched my mother teach in a high school. She got criticized for giving too many A's, then too many C's, then for not following the precise syllabus for each day, then.....

Higher Ed is a MUCH better living.

 

[halbhh]

The Ohio House passed a law that says that students cannot be counted wrong, even in a science class, if their answers are in line with their religion:

Ohio House passes bill allowing student answers to be scientifically wrong due to religion

In other words, the suggestion is that science teachers are not in the business of teaching science, but in catering to religious dogma.

Why anyone would consider this to be appropriate is beyond me.

Interesting! I've got some distance by the passage of time, but in a very different situation, I was the student having a contrary opinion to a professor (freshman honors english in college), about one of his favorite short pieces, Bartleby the Scrivener (I love Melville, and Moby Dick was already a favorite of mine, just...amazing and wonderful, but I hated Bartleby the Scrivener at that age, just 18).

So, I wrote a satire of Bartleby the Scrivener, as my paper, and it was probably my best work in the course, and while my other essays generally got an "A", this one got a "C-" in extra heavy and large red felt maker. With emphasis.

It's been a long time ago, and now it's all humorous to me, but at that time, I felt it was very unjust, and wrote a furious feedback on the paper and gave it back to him, and then he left the class and we got a new teacher for the remainder, and I wondered about the timing.

Anyway, I think the freedom of speech thing is important to respect. I'd be content for students to be graded on the correct answer, but be able to write a protest that they believe a different theory. In other words, I'd defend their right to be wrong, to have a free speech and be mistaken.

You don't educate by giving me a "C-" because I disagreed about Bartleby the Scrivener. (even if the teacher felt I missed a key point, it was still excellent work as an essay, the stated objective, lol) That only slowed down how long it was until I learned to appreciate that piece.

So, I'd suggest a different law: grade them the standard way, by correct answer, but allow students to write protest notes that they disagree.

Being wrong is a step on the way to being right, etc. Better to be accepting!

 

[Jose Fly]

Perhaps you overestimate the degree of acceptance children have in the classroom in regards to their religion?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/harra_sc.htm

Teachers in the past have both been involved in trying to take away children's religion as they have been trying to sell them on a certain one.

What does that have to do with this bill, which is specifically about "the completion of homework, artwork, or other written or oral assignments"?

 

[exchemist]

Let me give an example. Suppose the class is discussing the evolution of humans. They talk about the known ancestors, the time when they existed, etc.

Then, the question comes up 'When did Homo erectus live'?

A student answers that they lived fewer than 10,000 years ago. The question is graded (accurately) as incorrect. The student protests, claiming that their religious belief is that the earth is fewer than 10,000 years old.

So, the question becomes 'whose academic standards'? Is it the standards of the Institute for Creation Research, or is it the standards of the American Association for the Advancement of Science? is it the standards of their religion, of the standards set our by scientific organizations?

What if the parents sue the teacher? Will the school support that teacher?

And, of course, this comes in a long line of 'teaching the controversy' when there *isn't* any actual, scientific controversy. So, again, whose standards?

This is an incredibly bad law and simply promotes the idea that science can be ignored if you or your religion disagrees with it.

I agree.

It seems to me there is some ambiguity about what standards a teacher can consider when grading work. It probably would need a court case to establish that, in science lessons, the "academic standards of substance and relevance" are those of the science curriculum. Alone.

In other words, a student can ramble on about his or her religious beliefs, but these will get zero marks toward the grade for that assignment.

I suspect this is what a court would actually decide, but the tragedy is that it may have a chilling effect on teaching until someone goes to the trouble and expense of getting a court judgement to clarify it.

Where is Judge Jones?

 

[Polymath257]

Interesting! I've got some distance by the passage of time, but in a very different situation, I was the student having a contrary opinion to a professor (freshman honors english in college), about one of his favorite short pieces, Bartleby the Scrivener (I love Melville, and Moby Dick was already a favorite of mine, just...amazing and wonderful, but I hated Bartleby the Scrivener at that age, just 18).

So, I wrote a satire of Bartleby the Scrivener, as my paper, and it was probably my best work in the course, and while my other essays generally got an "A", this one got a "C-" in extra heavy and large red felt maker. With emphasis.

It's been a long time ago, and now it's all humorous to me, but at that time, I felt it was very unjust, and wrote a furious feedback on the paper and gave it back to him, and then he left the class and we got a new teacher for the remainder, and I wondered about the timing.

Anyway, I think the freedom of speech thing is important to respect. I'd be content for students to be graded on the correct answer, but be able to write a protest that they believe a different theory. In other words, I'd defend their right to be wrong, to have a free speech and be mistaken.

You don't educate by giving me a "C-" because I disagreed about Bartleby the Scrivener. (even if the teacher felt I missed a key point, it was still excellent work as an essay, the stated objective, lol) That only slowed down how long it was until I learned to appreciate that piece.

So, I'd suggest a different law: grade them the standard way, by correct answer, but allow students to write protest notes that they disagree.

Being wrong is a step on the way to being right, etc. Better to be accepting!

And in a class like English, where it is often a matter of personal preference, you have a very valid point.

I'm not as convinced of such in, say, math, where there *is* a correct answer or in physics, where it is simply wrong to say that the universe is less than 10,000 years old. If you have *good* arguments against the science (as opposed to simply having a religion that disagrees), then it is a very good thing to air the objections. In fact, it could, conceivably, lead to a published paper.

But I do wonder how much the teacher will be expected to read through the religious opinions before the actual answer is given (buried?).

 

[Polymath257]

I agree.

It seems to me there is some ambiguity about what standards a teacher can consider when grading work. It probably would need a court case to establish that, in science lessons, the "academic standards of substance and relevance" are those of the science curriculum. Alone.

In other words, a student can ramble on about his or her religious beliefs, but these will get zero marks toward the grade for that assignment.

I suspect this is what a court would actually decide, but the tragedy is that it may have a chilling effect on teaching until someone goes to the trouble and expense of getting a court judgement to clarify it.

Where is Judge Jones?

And I don't find it at ALL unlikely that some student (or parents, or lawyers) will argue that the 'academic standards' of their favorite home-school textbook are the ones to be used. The student would, supposedly, find their religious notions to be 'of substance and relevance'.

 

[halbhh]

And in a class like English, where it is often a matter of personal preference, you have a very valid point.

I'm not as convinced of such in, say, math, where there *is* a correct answer or in physics, where it is simply wrong to say that the universe is less than 10,000 years old. If you have *good* arguments against the science (as opposed to simply having a religion that disagrees), then it is a very good thing to air the objections. In fact, it could, conceivably, lead to a published paper.

But I do wonder how much the teacher will be expected to read through the religious opinions before the actual answer is given (buried?).

If someone says "better if they just left the situation as before, the old status quo", I think that would be better also. Every student learns they have to give the answer the teacher wants to get a good grade. It's a fact of life. Just as long as we keep the free speech side fully protected, separately, in other places/times. Then they can express their views, with free speech, outside of class, and outside of an assignment or test. That status quo is perfectly fine in my view.

But knowing myself, and others like me, there will be students that are not at all afraid to correct the teacher (as I did in math, physics, etc.) more than just once or twice (and I was correct, those were merely things like typos and mistakes, of not much importance, and they were glad for the aid).