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New 'on-line museum' challenges evolution

Skwim

Veteran Member
Ok, I have to say the part on Archy... they picked a couple of bombs for supporting papers.

The one on cardio-pulmonary function in theropods is simply dreadful. (using Osborn's 1916 figure of T.rex, only using one non-avian theropod: Allosaurus for comparison to a single bird, and so on)
According to their findings, Archy doesn't have air sacs either as it lacks many of the features they claim are necessary for them to function.

The other paper by Feduccia has been widely refuted. Not to mention outright disproved by more recent findings.

They could have done a much better job IMHO. I'm also disappointed they bring up Heckel who hasn't been in a science text book (except as a history lesson) for nearly a half a century.

wa:do
Which is all the more amusing when one considers this from their web site:
"[The] Virtual Museum [is] a resource for science teachers and students. Known as The World Around Us, its objective is to encourage discussion of evolutionary theory in the light of recent discoveries."
source
 

David M

Well-Known Member
I was under the impression by manoffaith it was a creation website.

by this statement

ancestor or descendant relationships to any other fossil, that is according to talkorigins.

That statement is entirely correct, fossils can only suggest that there is a relationship but not state an ancestor/decendant relationship except in a very few cases where we have exceptionaly good detail in the fossil record (even if its almost a certainty). Genetics can do this however, but we have no DNA for almost all fossilised species.
 
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Alceste

Vagabond
Two seperate species of birds doesn't men a bird came from any other type of form back in history. Can history be observed?

Yes, DNA can be read like a book for those who have the skill and tools to read it. And unlike the bible, this one is infallible.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Which is all the more amusing when one considers this from their web site:
"[The] Virtual Museum [is] a resource for science teachers and students. Known as The World Around Us, its objective is to encourage discussion of evolutionary theory in the light of recent discoveries."
source

"Recent" compared to the Council of Nicea, I suppose they mean.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Yes, DNA can be read like a book for those who have the skill and tools to read it. And unlike the bible, this one is infallible.

There are never any irregularities in DNA?
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
The observations of genetic change over time provide some of the best evidence for common descent. Francis Collins is a committed Christian, a scientist, and former head of the human genome project, and he explains the incontrovertible evidence of common descent in genetic observations in many of his works, including 'The Language of God' (2006).

In addition, you may want to close your eyes lest you accidentally observe even more unobservable evidence of common descent:

fossil-hominid-skulls.jpg


Here's a fun science problem (40 points): (1) (a) identify the modern human skull; (b) identify the modern chimpanzee skull; (c) put the fossils in chronological order according to the geological record; finally, (d) explain the magical appearance and sudden disappearance of the other hominid species in the fossil record, since we know they couldn't be related to each other.

Solution:
The modern human skull is at the end, labeled 'N'. The modern chimp skull is at the beginning, labeled 'A'. Except for the chimp skull, the fossils are already in chronological order from 'B' - 'N'. Since we know that common descent is imaginary, B could not have evolved into C, C into D, and so on until skull N. Otherwise, we would have to admit that humans (N) could have evolved from earlier ancestors (B) which share a common ancestor with chimps (A). To avoid this absurd conclusion, it follows that B must have magically appeared and then magically and suddenly disappeared, and their disappearance happened to coincide with the appearance of the separate species labeled by C. Then C disappeared and D magically appeared, and so on, until humans supernaturally came into existence when all the creatures labeled by M disappeared.

He, along with people like Ken Miller, are in agreement. Yes, Ken Miller is a theist (Catholic)..

[youtube]zi8FfMBYCkk[/youtube]
YouTube - Ken Miller on Human Evolution
 
That statement is entirely correct, fossils can only suggest that there is a relationship but not state an ancestor/decendant relationship except in a very few cases where we have exceptionaly good detail in the fossil record (even if its almost a certainty). Genetics can do this however, but we have no DNA for almost all fossilised species.
Fair enough but we don't have to prove which fossils are direct ancestors/descendants, rather than close cousins. To obtain evidence that evolution with common descent occurs we don't need to reconstruct the exact family tree. It's sufficient to observe that a variety of species appear and disappear in the fossil record, and there is a progression in time and in physical traits. The only way to explain these facts, without evolution, is to assume that each species disappeared suddenly and then a new species, with slightly modified traits, magically replaced the one before.

(I trust painted wolf, our resident evolutionary biology expert, will correct any mistakes I've made.) :)
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
And if Darwin was wrong, then the whole shebang is wrong, but nobody will let anyone say that and keep their job.

Yes, they will. You're more than welcome to say "If Darwin was wrong, then the whole theory is wrong" and keep your genetics job. Still it wouldn't be quite accurate. Darwin was wrong on some things, and those things have been corrected over the past 150 years.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
There are never any irregularities in DNA?

Of course! Irregularities in DNA are the basis of the genetic evidence for evolution. Genetic divergence due to these irregularities is what geneticists "read" in order to determine our heredity. Our tools and understanding may be fallible, but everything we need to know about our ancestry is there. Our skill at reading it has been progressing speedily.
 

Man of Faith

Well-Known Member
Yes, DNA can be read like a book for those who have the skill and tools to read it. And unlike the bible, this one is infallible.

We have the DNA to compare to direct descendants of humans (our babies) and it is 99.6% the same. Nothing like that comes close to other beings, so in my mind that refutes ancestory relationship for humans of anything other than humans. Unless of course I assume common descent then I can say any percentage the same proves evolution.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
We have the DNA to compare to direct descendants of humans (our babies) and it is 99.6% the same. Nothing like that comes close to other beings, so in my mind that refutes ancestory relationship for humans of anything other than humans. Unless of course I assume common descent then I can say any percentage the same proves evolution.

Don't project your exceptionally poor reasoning on someone else.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
These guys don't do their homework. They're still blurbing out the Galaxy NGC 4319/"quasar" luminous bridge thing.

This is old news creationists. Yet again creationist material that was solved in the 80's: Markarian was violently ejected from NGC 4319. Of course they have different red shifts. I'm sure you'd find a bullet has a different red shift from a gun, too. :rolleyes:

Why is it that, overwhelmingly, almost all creationist objections link back to the 80's? It's like they're stuck in a time warp. It's weird. Seriously, almost none of the creationist objections you see in literature trace back to answers presented before or after the 80's with some exceptions (Behe, Dembski).

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1987ApJ...319..687S
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
That statement is entirely correct, fossils can only suggest that there is a relationship but not state an ancestor/decendant relationship except in a very few cases where we have exceptionaly good detail in the fossil record (even if its almost a certainty). Genetics can do this however, but we have no DNA for almost all fossilised species.


it is not correct and we have showed you over and over again.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
You lost me. What are you refuting?


i wasnt refuting, you basicaly lied about the information coming from talk origins.

It came from a creationist as i suspected.

talk origins posted what a creationist said and you took posted that as "talk origins" stance and you were blatently wrong
 

outhouse

Atheistically
they train them to withstand our ignorance rantings lol

Its like they tell them "OK look were teaching you everything backwards and wrong so your going to hear allot of the word ignorant" LOL and that is the truth about it.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
These guys don't do their homework. They're still blurbing out the Galaxy NGC 4319/"quasar" luminous bridge thing.

This is old news creationists. Yet again creationist material that was solved in the 80's: Markarian was violently ejected from NGC 4319. Of course they have different red shifts. I'm sure you'd find a bullet has a different red shift from a gun, too. :rolleyes:

Why is it that, overwhelmingly, almost all creationist objections link back to the 80's? It's like they're stuck in a time warp. It's weird. Seriously, almost none of the creationist objections you see in literature trace back to answers presented before or after the 80's with some exceptions (Behe, Dembski).

The galaxy-quasar connection - NGC 4319 and Markarian 205. I - Direct imagery. I


there grasping at straws as science advances. They know there loosing all the ground they used to be able to hold with a few lies and a hail mary. Its not cutting it anymore.

There desperate to hold on to ancient beliefs most of us laugh at.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Of course Darwin was wrong on things... but he got one big thing right: Decent with modification.
No scientist would ever claim that everything Darwin said was right.

wa:do
 
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