NHS England Prohibits Access to Puberty Blockers at Gender-Identity Clinics, Limits Them to Research Settings

[Ignatius A]

This is one story. It doesn't list any reliable, authoritative sources for numbers on detransitioning, nor does it cite peer-reviewed studies or medical organizations on such numbers. I don't see how it demonstrates anything other than one account.

Hilarious. Let me ask you a question, how many genders are there?

 

[icehorse]

I don't think the above is an accurate summary of the Cass report.

I wasn't attempting to summarize the report. I was discussing one of its conclusions.

And like I said, multiple medical organizations have positions that don't align with NHS England's recent ban. If they didn't see a reason to have different policies, I don't think they would. That medical bodies disagree on such a core point seems to me enough reason not to be certain about one's views on this, regardless of which position one supports.

Among other things, the Cass report is a meta-study of other studies. They found no high quality evidence in other studies. They were thorough. If you know of studies that provide high quality evidence of GAC's efficacy, the world would benefit if you shared links to those studies. The experts who created the Cass report were unable to find such studies.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Hilarious. Let me ask you a question, how many genders are there?

Since gender is a spectrum, definitely more than two, but I don't know of an exact number.

What is the relevance of that question to the OP, though?

 

[icehorse]

This is one story. It doesn't list any reliable, authoritative sources for numbers on detransitioning, nor does it cite peer-reviewed studies or medical organizations on such numbers. I don't see how it demonstrates anything other than one account.

It's an interview with a leading expert who has more than a decade of experience supervising the treatment of hundreds of kids.

You asked whether many kids grow out of GD without drugs, and this world renowned experts addressed your question specifically.

 

[Ignatius A]

I wasn't attempting to summarize the report. I was discussing one of its conclusions.



Among other things, the Cass report is a meta-study of other studies. They found no high quality evidence in other studies. They were thorough. If you know of studies that provide high quality evidence of GAC's efficacy, the world would benefit if you shared links to those studies. The experts who created the Cass report were unable to find such studies.

Because there are no studies of gacs efficacy.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I wasn't attempting to summarize the report. I was discussing one of its conclusions.

Nowhere in it did I see anything dismissing gender-affirming care wholesale. Which part of it do you think stated that gender-affirming care (as opposed to certain procedures) had no evidence for its usage?

Among other things, the Cass report is a meta-study of other studies. They found no high quality evidence in other studies. They were thorough. If you know of studies that provide high quality evidence of GAC's efficacy, the world would benefit if you shared links to those studies. The experts who created the Cass report were unable to find such studies.

See above.

 

[Ignatius A]

Since gender is a spectrum, definitely more than two, but I don't know of an exact number.

What is the relevance of that question to the OP, though?

You mean a "spectrum" that's existed only for the past 5 years right? So give me give just one example of a gender on that spectrum. BTW, what are the two ends of the of the "spectrum"?

Answer the first question above and I'll explain the relevance to the OP.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I had gender affirming care which included hormones and surgeries as a minor, because myself, my parents and doctors determined the utility was greater than the cost, including side effects. I would have gone on puberty blockers if they had been available to me, too. Because when I had puberty did significant damage.

And I'm a cis woman.

A blanket ban is eyeroll worthy, we know the real reason why it's happening.

 

[Debater Slayer]

It's an interview with a leading expert who has more than a decade of experience supervising the treatment of hundreds of kids.

You asked whether many kids grow out of GD without drugs, and this world renowned experts addressed your question specifically.

One could easily find individual experts supporting various opinions, and this topic is no exception. One could even find anti-vax doctors and young-Earth-creationist scientists. Peer-reviewed research is typically much more rigorous and reliable than individual opinions, which is why I asked for such sources.

 

[Ignatius A]

I had gender affirming care which included hormones and surgeries as a minor, because myself, my parents and doctors determined the utility was greater than the cost, including side effects. I would have gone on puberty blockers if they had been available to me, too. Because when I had puberty did significant damage.

And I'm a cis woman.

A blanket ban is eyeroll worthy, we know the real reason why it's happening.

Were you born intersex?

The real reason is there is no reason to mutilate children for wild social engineering experiments.

 

[Ignatius A]

One could easily find individual experts supporting various opinions, and this topic is no exception. One could even find anti-vax doctors and young-Earth-creationist scientists. Peer-reviewed research is typically much more rigorous and reliable than individual opinions, which is why I asked for such sources.

Do you know who Peter Boghossian is?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Were you born intersex?

The real reason is there is no reason to mutilate children for wild social engineering experiments.

Not unless you consider severe PCOS an intersex condition (some do.)

I think less of people who call gender affirming surgeries 'mutilation.' As they no doubt think less of me for thinking routine circumcision or surgeries on healthy intersex babies mutilation.

 

[libre]

If you care about these kids, get yourself informed. WATCH THE VIDEO!!

Last time I read through the SOC8 Wpath PDF to demonstrate that you were spreading misleading assertions.
Afterwards you shifted the goalposts and completely deflected from the fact that you had made a statement that your own source contradicted.


Forgive me that I don't feel like I should download and parse through a 2GB video because you cannot be bothered to quote the WPATH's official's own words which are allegedly so damning.

I'm not really interested in wasting my time indulging the link-bombing if you can't be bothered to speak with any responsibility or specificity.

 

[Debater Slayer]

You mean a "spectrum" that's existed only for the past 5 years right? So give me give just one example of a gender on that spectrum. BTW, what are the two ends of the of the "spectrum"?

Past five years? Recognition of more than two genders is both far older and more widespread than that:

Cultures That Recognize More than Two Genders | Britannica

Curious about genders that defy the binary? Learn more about cultures around the world that recognize nonbinary identities.

www.britannica.com

Answer the first question above and I'll explain the relevance to the OP.

Dropping the attitude might be a more productive way to approach the discussion.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Do you know who Peter Boghossian is?

Yeah, I know. He's a vitriolically anti-religious ideologue who, like a few other relatively high-profile ideologues, has carved a niche for himself as a "rational" anti-religious pundit while promoting hateful and demonizing politics.

I'm guessing you're referring to this:

Grievance studies affair - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In which case my response is that some examples of flawed peer-review processes in a specific field of academia don't somehow invalidate the significant volume of research in other areas or its greater reliability compared to individual expert views. Many of the inventions and medical products we use were produced with the help of peer-reviewed studies, after all.

 

[Ignatius A]

Not unless you consider severe PCOS an intersex condition (some do.)

I think less of people who call gender affirming surgeries 'mutilation.' As they no doubt think less of me for thinking routine circumcision or surgeries on healthy intersex babies mutilation.

So yes you're a woman.

It doesnt really matter to me what you think people who call mutilation, mutilation or what you think about circumcision. Dealing with intersex disorders is not mutilation. Mutilation consists of taking a healthy big or girl and mutilating their bodies based on how they "feel" at an we wouldn't let them sign contracts because they are too young. The way people twist things is what makes me care less about them.

 

[icehorse]

Last time I read through the SOC8 Wpath PDF to demonstrate that you were spreading misleading assertions.
Afterwards you shifted the goalposts and completely deflected from the fact that you had made a statement that your own source contradicted.


Forgive me that I don't feel like I should download and parse through a 2GB video because you cannot be bothered to quote the WPATH's official's own words which are allegedly so damning.

I'm not really interested in wasting my time indulging the link-bombing if you can't be bothered to speak with any responsibility or specificity.

You continue to try to make it personal. But it's not about you or me, it's about vulnerable kids.

You clearly have opinions, and it would appear you're not willing to accept any new information that might conflict with those opinions.

 

[Ignatius A]

Yeah, I know. He's a vitriolically anti-religious ideologue who, like a few other relatively high-profile ideologues, has carved a niche for himself as a "rational" anti-religious pundit while promoting hateful and demonizing politics.

I'm guessing you're referring to this:

Grievance studies affair - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In which case my response is that some examples of flawed peer-review processes in a specific field of academia don't somehow invalidate the significant volume of research in other areas or its greater reliability compared to individual expert views. Many of the inventions and medical products we use were produced with the help of peer-reviewed studies, after all.

Then you know "peer reviewed" means nothing. When people appeal to "peer review" rather than the content of something that's when I I know that person is full of ....

 

[icehorse]

One could easily find individual experts supporting various opinions, and this topic is no exception. One could even find anti-vax doctors and young-Earth-creationist scientists. Peer-reviewed research is typically much more rigorous and reliable than individual opinions, which is why I asked for such sources.

You recall from the article that this doctor was in contact with other leading doctors across the world who were all coming to the same conclusion? So what this article is showing is leading experts from around the world, performing GAC as prescribed by WPATH and finding that it doesn't work.

This doctor also performed her own meta-studies. I think it's inaccurate to cast her as "an individual expert" as she clearly worked with her peers throughout her long career helping these hundreds of kids.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Then you know "peer reviewed" means nothing.

Not even close. Any process undertaken and overseen by humans is bound to have flaws, but that's no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. It has still yielded many immensely useful results.

When people appeal to "peer review" rather than the content of something that's when I I know that person is full of ....

The content of that article details one person's story and experience. It provides no rigorous, peer-reviewed evidence of larger trends or percentages concerning detransitioning.