Nice Guy, This Christian God

[viole]

As Christians tell their story, god has heaven and hell waiting for us after we die. Which one we end up in depends either on our works (the Catholic belief) or the grace of god (the Protestant belief). Plus, both require accepting Jesus Christ as one's savior, which essentially consists of coming to god/Jesus to be saved, repenting, having faith, and being baptized.

Do all these things and there's a good chance you'll avoid hell and end up in heaven, an exceedingly more desirable place to spend eternity---One does have to question god's so called goodness when he finds it fitting to make a person suffer for all eternity for what one had only the briefest of time in which to prove himself, but that's a whole other issue.

What interests me here is another aspect of god's decision making: its fairness.


Q. 1) What of those who have never heard of god's Get Out Of Hell Free card? Do they get to go to heaven?

Because the rules stipulate that to avoid hell and gain entrance into heaven one must accept Jesus Christ as one's lord and savior, not getting the message doesn't count as an excuse. If one could get into heaven without getting the message, then the message couldn't be that important. In fact, one would be better off having never heard of the message. Hearing the message just puts one in jeopardy of screwing it up. In this case ignorance would be a great excuse. But God says it doesn't work that way, which means that millions upon millions of people are unwittingly destined for hell because of their ignorance. I'm aware that some Christians have made up stories about how Jesus or god will judge these ignorant people after they die, deciding who among them deserve heaven, but they're just stories, or at best, an excruciating twisting of scriptures.


Q. 2) What of those who've heard of god's Get Out Of Hell Free card but don't take it?

This, I believe, comes down to a matter of remaining unconvinced it has any merit.

Those of the Buddhist, Hindu, and Shinto religions, and many others feel Christianity simply hasn't proven its point, which is; that there's a hell that can only be avoided and a heaven that can only be attained by taking Jesus Christ as one's lord and savior. The same is true of the atheists, agnostics, and everyone else who rejects the Christian claim. And whose fault is this? If you're a Christian ask yourself: after having read about other religions why haven't you abandoned Christianity and adopted one of them? Could it be they've failed to convince you? And whose fault would that be? Yours? I'm sure you'd say the fault lies with the particular religion. The same holds true for everyone who rejects Christianity, yet god implies that such people are to be blamed for his preacher's inability to convince the non-believer, ergo, the non-believer must suffer. Sound fair? Sure doesn't to me. Unfortunately, the incompetent preachers who've bombarded the non-believer with unconvincing reasons to accept Jesus simply didn't do their job. Yet god holds him responsible for his preacher's failure. And the consequence? Hell

Sound like a fair and loving decision to you?

.

I think this is a huge unsolved logical problem for the doctrine of salvation, which is the pillar without it everything crumbles.

Either people who never heard of jesus are judged differently or not. In both cases, the policy is unfair. And we can assume that unfairness deviates from the perfection of a god, by definition. In the former case, it would be better not to know about Jesus, in order to reduce risks to scew up, as you said. In the latter, it is totallly unfair to send people to hell for reasons outside their control.

Even though such forms of belief do not appreciate logical consistency, for obvious reasons, I would say they have at least to admit that people who never heard of Jesus will actually go to hell, for reasons beyond their control.

How would they explain otherwise their obsession to spread the so called good news to as many people as possible?

But, again, the solutions to such riddles is amazingly simple. A no brainer, really.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Earthling]

So YOU say. More of your overblown ego? What makes YOU an "expert"? Hmmm?

I don't think I would use the term expert. I kind of don't like that term as it implies not just anyone can be conversant on any given subject. It also implies that an expert is the final authority that would supersede any intelligent investigation you yourself could undertake without the pretentious title of expert.

So, basically what you are saying, is that I keep looking until I find a suitable answer?

Right, and then don't stop looking because you could be wrong, or if you never find a suitable answer keep looking. So . . . just keep looking. It's fun!

What if the suitable answer is that god appears to be entirely a fabrication of human imagination?

Well, that's certainly a possible conclusion, but . . . keep looking.

Because that certainly fits within the guidelines you just stated.

How so?

And VIOLA! Just like that? I have "found god"-- and? It turns out he was never there all along.

A more suitable answer I could not wish for...

There, you see? You have already found the answer you wanted all along, but don't be so foolish as to stop there. Just because you want that answer don't mean that it is the right one, and just because the alternative is discovered by you don't mean you have to like it. You don't have to be ignorant of God to reject him.

 

[Tomas Kindahl]

As Christians tell their story, god has heaven and hell waiting for us after we die. Which one we end up in depends either on our works (the Catholic belief) or the grace of god (the Protestant belief). Plus, both require accepting Jesus Christ as one's savior, which essentially consists of coming to god/Jesus to be saved, repenting, having faith, and being baptized.

Do all these things and there's a good chance you'll avoid hell and end up in heaven, an exceedingly more desirable place to spend eternity---One does have to question god's so called goodness when he finds it fitting to make a person suffer for all eternity for what one had only the briefest of time in which to prove himself, but that's a whole other issue.

What interests me here is another aspect of god's decision making: its fairness.


Q. 1) What of those who have never heard of god's Get Out Of Hell Free card? Do they get to go to heaven?

Because the rules stipulate that to avoid hell and gain entrance into heaven one must accept Jesus Christ as one's lord and savior, not getting the message doesn't count as an excuse. If one could get into heaven without getting the message, then the message couldn't be that important. In fact, one would be better off having never heard of the message. Hearing the message just puts one in jeopardy of screwing it up. In this case ignorance would be a great excuse. But God says it doesn't work that way, which means that millions upon millions of people are unwittingly destined for hell because of their ignorance. I'm aware that some Christians have made up stories about how Jesus or god will judge these ignorant people after they die, deciding who among them deserve heaven, but they're just stories, or at best, an excruciating twisting of scriptures.


Q. 2) What of those who've heard of god's Get Out Of Hell Free card but don't take it?

This, I believe, comes down to a matter of remaining unconvinced it has any merit.

Those of the Buddhist, Hindu, and Shinto religions, and many others feel Christianity simply hasn't proven its point, which is; that there's a hell that can only be avoided and a heaven that can only be attained by taking Jesus Christ as one's lord and savior. The same is true of the atheists, agnostics, and everyone else who rejects the Christian claim. And whose fault is this? If you're a Christian ask yourself: after having read about other religions why haven't you abandoned Christianity and adopted one of them? Could it be they've failed to convince you? And whose fault would that be? Yours? I'm sure you'd say the fault lies with the particular religion. The same holds true for everyone who rejects Christianity, yet god implies that such people are to be blamed for his preacher's inability to convince the non-believer, ergo, the non-believer must suffer. Sound fair? Sure doesn't to me. Unfortunately, the incompetent preachers who've bombarded the non-believer with unconvincing reasons to accept Jesus simply didn't do their job. Yet god holds him responsible for his preacher's failure. And the consequence? Hell

Sound like a fair and loving decision to you?

.

I accept everything except the last question, because it wasn't really a question, it was a rhetorical cudgel-in-your-head-repent-Christian-or ...

I share your sentiment. I converted back from Christianity to Gnosticism because the answers from Christianity weren't really answers. As for this shrewd submit-under-Christ-or-burn-in-Hell-message is not in any way unique to Christianity, but the same subversion can be found in the Qur'an and something similar in Krishnaism ISKCON (Hare Krishna movement). This is probably very common, and I've seen tendencies of a fiery cosmological fight between good and evil in Atheist doctrine too. Just keep your head calm and level-headed, and don't yield to threats, subversive or obvious — that's my message.