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Nihilism
- Thread starter The Sum of Awe
- Start date
Agreed. Subjectivity is a part of our reality, and we had to accept that.
But, just because it's a part of our reality, doesn't make it true. Dreams are part of our reality, but they are not true, they are real, but not in the objective sense. Objective sense being the absolute factual based on what's real.
Dreams are objective, but what they are is subjective.
Sorry if I'm hard to understand,.
Nah. It's a tricky subject to discuss.
So besides full scale rebellion against our own consciousness, what choice do we have other than to accept our subjectivity as it is? That's not to say we can't try to find a balance between the real of the subjective and the real of the objective. Personally, I find practicing mindfulness and meditation helps with increasing one's ability to be more subjectively-objective.
I would say that nothing has value objectively other than that which we find ourselves naturally valuing by virtue of our physical existence and cultural essence. Simple examples would be food or sex. Can we really claim that those values do not drive our motivations?
More complex values would be hedonism, stimulation, self-direction, universalism, benevolence, achievement, power, security, tradition/ conformity. We may argue that these values do not really exist all we want, but alas we may observe that their influence is blatantly apparent in the objective world. Try to stop valuing the things that you already do.
I don't know that the absolute truth which can be known via consciousness can be said to be the absolute truth. It is beyond comprehension. What use is absolute truth anyway? Besides fooling people into believing that they possess it perfectly or that it should be imposed upon others?
So it would be impossible to deny our subjective experience of objective reality. We might as well work with the way things are as we are rather than against them or against ourselves. Nice typing with you. Take it easy.
I take it as a philosophy.
We have another option, continue using subjectivity for personal matters such as people asking "how are you doing?" or "do you like the cake?" but leave subjectivity out of it for real matters that implies for everyone, overall.
That means no morals, no emotion, no color, no value, unless asking for a personal opinion.
Yes, they do, but as you seem to agree, they only do subjectively.
I'm not saying we should stop valuing things though, we absolutely have to, it's absurd to not value something. But we cannot make our values interfere with everything, objectively, for everyone.
The government may value the lives of animals, but he should not demand the country to stop eating meat, we all have our own values.
Though, valuing nothing other than your own, personal happiness makes you the freest man on earth, but even in that sense, you are valuing something, valuing nothing at all, as I said, is very much absurd, that's where Nihilism is flawed, that's the only space me and Nihilism disagree on.
Though, I am one of the freest men on earth.
Absolute truth would be: The rock is a rock.
Now, add our subjectivity to it: the rock is brown. The rock is evil. The rock tastes good. The rock is sexy. I love this rock.
Okay, you too.
Hehe, yes, people mistake Nazis as Nihilists and the other way around too
dust1n
Zindīq
Realism
Incorrect.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
That's productive.
dust1n
Zindīq
Cute. My simple reaction... realism =/= nihlism. What would you like explained?
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
dust1n
Zindīq
No, thanks. You're apparent grudge from previous threads is bleeding into this one. Grow up and listen to a different perspective, or at least provide one, as opposed to bleeding a grudge over from another thread.
I just want to know why you don't think so.
dust1n
Zindīq
Sure. Realism is a recognition to a certian reality which exists objectively. Nihlism is a denial of pretty much all objective claims. Thus, Realism=/=Nihlism.
From what I understand of Nihilism, it is the denial of all subjective claims, such as meaning and value and morals, etc.
I don't see how it's logically impossible to deny all objective claims.
The only branch of Nihilism that does is Metaphysical Nihilism
John Thiel
Member
Is there such a thing as an optimistic nihilist?
No, they contradict. Optimism is positive as in everything is good, Nihilism is neutral as in everything just is.
Everything just is, including subjective experiences. So I'm back. Sorry, this topic is just more interesting that many others at the moment.
Optimism doesn't mean that everything is good. You can be optimistic and still try to see things as they are. There are different definitions for it I suppose. I use it to refer to the disposition or tendency to look on the more favorable side of events or conditions. It's a matter of focus. I will focus on appreciating that which I perceive to be good in my life rather than just lamenting on the bad. This doesn't mean that I'm not aware of that which I view as unfavorable, but I don't make it a fixation or let it control my life. Positive thinking influences positive actions which increase the likelihood of more positive events happening. It is in no way a hindrance on my ability to see things as they are as much as possible.
I don't know that I rightly know what you mean by nihilism. It is my understanding that nihilism is the negation of all values, beliefs, morals, etc. This, in turn, would be a denial of the human condition and experience itself however. It just doesn't seem very practical. Perhaps you specifically utilize it in a certain way, such as focusing on concepts. Again, I don't know the value of negating all concepts. Deconstructing them to better understand them is different from destroying them altogether. Concepts are just tools that we use to make sense of the world and interact with it. Would you say that you do not believe in concepts then? What do you mean by belief? Because surely you still utilize concepts. I guess it all depends on what is meant here.
But you contradicted here, you admit Optimism is positive thinking, but yet you say Optimism sees things as they are. The world is not measured by Positive or Negative, those are artificially made and relative concepts, no system can accurately measure it, therefore it isn't "it" when you say something is positive or negative, you're giving it value when you do that, but things do not have value, we give it value, whether it be positive or negative value.
Describing something as it is would not include positive or negative or anything emotional to be a part in describing it, such as "The cake is good" is not describing it as it is, it's describing it as it is in your opinion, and opinions are not facts.
Therefore, Optimism is based on opinions, when Nihilism is about facts only, no opinions, emotions, or anything else like that subjective to interfere.
Sorry I'm not sure what you mean here. I do agree that Nihilism is negating values beliefs and morals, etc because they were not inherit, they are very much subjective, opinions, relative, not based on facts, therefore do not describe the object as it IS.
Though, Nihilism doesn't deconstruct anything, nor destroys anything, there's no reason to, if that's what you're saying. It's only logical to.
Nihilism does believe in concepts, but not for the concepts to be real. It's like saying, just because the concept of God is real, doesn't mean God is real.
In the same way, the concept of morality, value, etc exist but they are not real.