Nirvana

[Tashi]

Or, there is a chair, but only and while the adequate interdependent conditions for its existence hold true.

Interdependant conditions dont give rise to the existence of a chair, but the mind does.

I look at it like this: There are a series of conditions, or in this case aggrigates, like legs and a seat. The mind then imputates or superimposes upon those aggrigates the concept of a chair.

Thus, there is no chair in reality, only its parts. The conclusion should be that the chair has no essence in itself, but its purely a mental creation.

 

[koan]

And before that, there was only the tree(wooden chair), Iron ore (steel chair) or oil in the ground (plastic chair) only the mind could think of how to change these into a chair. Then again, Chair, is just a made up word by the mind.

 

[autonomous1one1]

Hi joea, IMO the reality meant to be represented by the concept of nirvana needs to be realized directly for enlightenment, the mundane mind's conceptualizations about it are just imagined mental constructs. -....

Greetings Ben. Could you offer more on how nirvana and enlightenment compare - how they differ and how they are the same in your opinion. Many consider the two terms to point towards the same realization.

 

[koan]

Enlightenment is the realisation that all is empty etc. Nirvana, is the use of enlightenment to cut off suffering.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Greetings Ben. Could you offer more on how nirvana and enlightenment compare - how they differ and how they are the same in your opinion. Many consider the two terms to point towards the same realization.

Hi autonomous1one1, it is my understanding that the actual reality represented by such concepts as 'enlightenment' and 'nirvana' is one free from the dualistic perspective, such that an infinite number of words, descriptions, comparisons, etc., will only serve to continue the suffering of the seeker of enlightenment.

Non-duality/nirvana is devoid of conceptual thinking so a realized Buddha can only transmit the inherent unity intrinsic to apparent diversity through inner silence. m:

 

[autonomous1one1]

Hi autonomous1one1, it is my understanding that the actual reality represented by such concepts as 'enlightenment' and 'nirvana' is one free from the dualistic perspective, such that an infinite number of words, descriptions, comparisons, etc., will only serve to continue the suffering of the seeker of enlightenment.

Non-duality/nirvana is devoid of conceptual thinking so a realized Buddha can only transmit the inherent unity intrinsic to apparent diversity through inner silence. m:

Thank you, Ben.

 

[Tashi]

Enlightenment is the realisation that all is empty etc. Nirvana, is the use of enlightenment to cut off suffering.

According to Gelug Tibetan Buddhism, Nirvana and Enlightenment are different. You can have Nirvana and not Enlightenment, but not the other way around.

If one meditates so that suffering is apparently gone, but the subtle foundations of suffering have not been completely destroyed, that is Nirvana.
But when the foundation of all suffering and ignorance has been cut off, that is Enlightenment.

So really, you get to Nirvana first. But if you keep on going, then you get to full Enlightenment. But this is just the Gelug view, which I do subscribe to.

 

[autonomous1one1]

Enlightenment is the realisation that all is empty etc. Nirvana, is the use of enlightenment to cut off suffering.

According to Gelug Tibetan Buddhism, Nirvana and Enlightenment are different. You can have Nirvana and not Enlightenment, but not the other way around.

If one meditates so that suffering is apparently gone, but the subtle foundations of suffering have not been completely destroyed, that is Nirvana.
But when the foundation of all suffering and ignorance has been cut off, that is Enlightenment.

So really, you get to Nirvana first. But if you keep on going, then you get to full Enlightenment. But this is just the Gelug view, which I do subscribe to.

Very interesting. Thank you two for responding.

 

[YmirGF]

Very interesting. Thank you two for responding.

I don't find their comments all that interesting. It's not like they actually know what they are talking about.

 

[koan]

Tashi, it sounds to me that you may have missunderstood the What the Gelug tradition means. You said the same as me, but in reverse. How could one reside in Nirvana, withouth the undestanding of Why?

 

[joea]

I don't find their comments all that interesting. It's not like they actually know what they are talking about.

I tend to agree with you. Every individual has it's own level of understanding hence, Truth is not collective...

 

[joea]

According to Gelug Tibetan Buddhism, Nirvana and Enlightenment are different. You can have Nirvana and not Enlightenment, but not the other way around.

I fail to see the sense of what you're saying here...??

 

[LuisDantas]

Thus, there is no chair in reality, only its parts. The conclusion should be that the chair has no essence in itself, but its purely a mental creation.

Isn't it slightly more accurate to say tha the chair does exist, but is only a chair because the mind lends it such a meaning?

Actually, it would be even better to say that the person's experiences lend it a concept of chair, that is later applied to physically extant objects. The object itself is not a physical creation, although it may have been created in response to a mental concept.

 

[zenzero]

Friends,

As some differnces in our understanding of the words *enlightenment* and *nirvana* has cropped up; am just bringing wiki for clarification.

NIRVANA:
The Buddha described Nirvāna as the perfect peace of the state of mind that is free from craving, anger and other afflicting states (kilesas). It is also the "end of the world"; there is no identity left, and no boundaries for the mind. The subject is at peace with the world, has compassion for all and gives up obsessions and fixations. This peace is achieved when the existing volitional formations are pacified, and the conditions for the production of new ones are eradicated. In Nirvāṇa the root causes of craving and aversion have been extinguished, so that one is no longer subject to human suffering (Pali: dukkha) or further rebirth in Samsāra.
The Pāli Canon also contains other perspectives on Nirvāna; for one, it is linked to seeing the empty nature of all phenomena. It is also presented as a radical reordering of consciousness and unleashing of awareness.[2] Scholar Herbert Guenther states that with Nirvāṇa "the ideal personality, the true human being" becomes reality.[3]
In the Dhammapada, the Buddha says of Nirvāna that it is "the highest happiness". This happiness is an enduring, transcendental happiness integral to the calmness attained through enlightenment or bodhi, rather than the happiness derived from impermanent things. The knowledge accompanying Nirvāṇa is expressed through the word bodhi.

ENLIGHTENMENT:The English term enlightenment has commonly been used to translate bodhi (Sanskrit), a Buddhist term referring to a unique experience which partially or wholly transforms an individual from his or her previous state in samsara.[1] Siddhartha Gautama, commonly known as the Buddha, is said to have achieved full enlightenment, known as perfect Buddhahood (Skt. samyaksambuddha). In many Buddhist traditions, reaching full enlightenment is equivalent in meaning to reaching Nirvana.[2] Attaining Buddhahood is the ultimate goal of Buddhism.[3]

Some schools focus on mantras (such as the Daimoku in Nichiren Buddhism) or devotion to Buddha ancestors, while others (such as Zen and Theravada Buddhism) on meditation, Threefold Training, mental development and Prajñā. Schools that focus on meditation include the observation of thoughts and acquittal of the Ego. For example, Indian Theravadin Buddhist commentator and scholar Buddhaghosa identifies various options within the Pali canon for pursuing a path to the enlightenment in Visuddhimagga (written in approximately 430 CE), including by vipassana and by jhana and other beneficial actions.[4] These two methods described by Buddhaghosa are similar to Dhammapada 277 and Dh. 372, respectively.[5][6]
[edit]Terms and levels of enlightenment in various Buddhist traditions

The understanding of what enlightenment entails differs somewhat among the various schools of Buddhism. In the Zen tradition, Kensho refers to enlightenment experiences at the start of the path to full enlightenment.[7][8] Satori is sometimes used interchangeably with Kensho, but more often refers to a more stable degree of realization. Five ranks of enlightenment were formulated by Patriarch Tozan[9] along with the Ten Ox-Herding Pictures which detail the steps on the Path.
Nirvana used nearly synonymously with the word enlightenment in many Buddhist traditions, and in experience may in fact be the same thing. (involving the process of cessation of dukkha). Tathagata and Buddha-nature are often used as impersonal translations of enlightenment. Bodhi, in turn, means "awakened", that is, aware of the Buddha nature of all beings.[10]

Love & rgds

 

[autonomous1one1]

Friends,

As some differnces in our understanding of the words *enlightenment* and *nirvana* has cropped up; am just bringing wiki for clarification.
Quote:
NIRVANA:
The Buddha described Nirvāna as the perfect peace of the state of mind .....It is also presented as a radical reordering of consciousness and unleashing of awareness.[2] Scholar Herbert Guenther states that with Nirvāṇa "the ideal personality, the true human being" becomes reality.[3]
In the Dhammapada, the Buddha says of Nirvāna that it is "the highest happiness". This happiness is an enduring, transcendental happiness integral to the calmness attained through enlightenment or bodhi, .....
Quote:
ENLIGHTENMENT:The English term enlightenment has commonly been used to translate bodhi (Sanskrit), a Buddhist term referring to a unique experience which partially or wholly transforms an individual from his or her previous state in samsara....... In many Buddhist traditions, reaching full enlightenment is equivalent in meaning to reaching Nirvana.[2] Attaining Buddhahood is the ultimate goal of Buddhism.[3].....

The understanding of what enlightenment entails differs somewhat among the various schools of Buddhism.....Nirvana used nearly synonymously with the word enlightenment in many Buddhist traditions, and in experience may in fact be the same thing. (involving the process of cessation of dukkha). Tathagata and Buddha-nature are often used as impersonal translations of enlightenment. Bodhi, in turn, means "awakened", that is, aware of the Buddha nature of all beings.[10]
Love & rgds

Thank you Zen. Seems that wiki has a good writeup on this subject. From the perspective of the selected text, one could say that enlightenment and nirvana are always together - where there is one, there is the other. Enlightenment points toward the Self-realization into nondual wisdom whereas nirvana points toward the accompanying state of bliss and freedom aspects of that realization. With enlightenment there will always be nirvana and nirvana comes from none other than enlightenment.

 

[YmirGF]

With enlightenment there will always be nirvana and nirvana comes from none other than enlightenment.

You are so easily impressed, Robert. Oddly, it is a triumph that no one can claim lest they run afoul of the Buddhist Catch-22. Ergo... you can reach enlightenment, in this lifetime, you just can't claim to have reached it, as there isn't supposed to be any "you" left to do the claiming. It makes the whole shenanigans little more than an object lesson in vaunted puffery.

 

[Engyo]

You are so easily impressed, Robert. Oddly, it is a triumph that no one can claim lest they run afoul of the Buddhist Catch-22. Ergo... you can reach enlightenment, in this lifetime, you just can't claim to have reached it, as there isn't supposed to be any "you" left to do the claiming. It makes the whole shenanigans little more than an object lesson in vaunted puffery.

Yeah, but why would I WANT to claim such a thing (whether or not I had accomplished it)? Seems to me that such a claim would just result in unnecessary mega-headaches (completely leaving aside the actual attainment or lack thereof). Of course, I'm not looking to make money at this, so maybe I'm missing one of the major points.

 

[autonomous1one1]

You are so easily impressed, Robert. Oddly, it is a triumph that no one can claim lest they run afoul of the Buddhist Catch-22. Ergo... you can reach enlightenment, in this lifetime, you just can't claim to have reached it, as there isn't supposed to be any "you" left to do the claiming. It makes the whole shenanigans little more than an object lesson in vaunted puffery.

One might say that everything is not only impressive but amazing. However, from a different perspective there may be another interpretation for one might say that not only is there no 'you' to claim enlightenment, there is no 'you' to reach it, nor is there a 'you' to be impressed. It only can be said that there is enlightened being in which the Source realizes itself through the human consciousness.

 

[YmirGF]

It only can be said that there is enlightened being in which the Source realizes itself through the human consciousness.

How would "you" know though? Answer me that and I'll give you a cookie.

 

[YmirGF]

Yeah, but why would I WANT to claim such a thing (whether or not I had accomplished it)? Seems to me that such a claim would just result in unnecessary mega-headaches (completely leaving aside the actual attainment or lack thereof). Of course, I'm not looking to make money at this, so maybe I'm missing one of the major points.

This is something that has certainly occurred to me but nonetheless, if said being had achieved the prize why not broadcast it? In theory, they would be able to backup what they were saying, in theory.... that is.