No Church or organization is without Sin

[dance-above]

The bible says we have all falling short of the glory of God. I believe this is true not only of an individual but also of Church and organizational doctrines. The reason I say this is because most individual Christian groups believe that their way is the only way and that you must actually belong to that church and believe their doctrines to be saved. This is were I totally disagree because until the person is perfected their doctrine is going to be in error. So our salvation and hope must be through Christ and Christ alone since he is the one given to us by the father. What do you think?

 

[dance-above]

Strangely enough the only way I could start loving other groups was when I realized we all fall short but there was still hope through Christ.

 

[ChristineES]

I have always been wary of groups who say they are the only true Christians. And you're right, all of these groups will fall short and I believe that God knows that and forgives us. A long time ago, I used to judge certain other Christian denominations (never all of them). I repented of that several years ago. The only group I question now is the Westboro Baptist Church.

 

[nazz]

The bible says we have all falling short of the glory of God. I believe this is true not only of an individual but also of Church and organizational doctrines. The reason I say this is because most individual Christian groups believe that their way is the only way and that you must actually belong to that church and believe their doctrines to be saved. This is were I totally disagree because until the person is perfected their doctrine is going to be in error. So our salvation and hope must be through Christ and Christ alone since he is the one given to us by the father. What do you think?

I totally agree

 

[Shiranui117]

The bible says we have all falling short of the glory of God. I believe this is true not only of an individual but also of Church and organizational doctrines. The reason I say this is because most individual Christian groups believe that their way is the only way and that you must actually belong to that church and believe their doctrines to be saved. This is were I totally disagree because until the person is perfected their doctrine is going to be in error. So our salvation and hope must be through Christ and Christ alone since he is the one given to us by the father. What do you think?

There's a saying in the Orthodox Church: "We know where the Holy Spirit is, but we don't know where He isn't." God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy--and I'm sure that many who weren't part of Christ's Church in this life will find themselves members of the Church after the Resurrection, as unknowing stowaways on the ark of salvation.

And it's also true that there will never be a congregation in this fallen world whose members are without sin; the Church is a hospital for sinners, and we're all sick with the disease of sin. The only cure is Christ, the Head of the Church. Bishops, priests/pastors and deacons are just as sinful and unworthy as the rest of us, and it's important to keep that mind; false hopes will leave us scandalized and disillusioned.

 

[dance-above]

Frubals to all of you. I have to reload.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

It is nice to see another compassionate christian on RF.

 

[Pegg]

The bible says we have all falling short of the glory of God. I believe this is true not only of an individual but also of Church and organizational doctrines. The reason I say this is because most individual Christian groups believe that their way is the only way and that you must actually belong to that church and believe their doctrines to be saved. This is were I totally disagree because until the person is perfected their doctrine is going to be in error. So our salvation and hope must be through Christ and Christ alone since he is the one given to us by the father. What do you think?

sure, no man or organization is perfect...all are prone to error.

But our salvation and hope are explained in the scriptures, so its not hard to find out what we need to be doing to obtain salvation. And if thats the case, then it is also fairly easy to know if a religious group or organization are helping their flocks to do what is needed.

So regardless of how imperfect we are, we are not so imperfect that we can't determine if our organization is leading us in the right direction.

 

[collectivedementia]

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.....
Jesus died for all humanity to have salvation and be forgiven of their sins. Unfortunately there are those who beleive that we only have to pray the sinners prayer once for all time, and any future sins are forgiven as well as past ones. He also told the woman to go and sin no more. If people pray for forgiveness, invite Jesus into their heart but continue to do the things they wish to be forgiven for, that should be considered blasphemy equal to the unpardonable sin. Pastors, preachers, ministers or bishops are not excluded from this, and tend to mislead their congregations.

 

[ChristineES]

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.....
Jesus died for all humanity to have salvation and be forgiven of their sins. Unfortunately there are those who believe that we only have to pray the sinners prayer once for all time, and any future sins are forgiven as well as past ones. He also told the woman to go and sin no more. If people pray for forgiveness, invite Jesus into their heart but continue to do the things they wish to be forgiven for, that should be considered blasphemy equal to the unpardonable sin. Pastors, preachers, ministers or bishops are not excluded from this, and tend to mislead their congregations.

Yes, that is a very important thing to bring up! Repentance is a big thing in Christianity and also the fact that Preachers, Priests, Pastors, etc. are also just the same as the rest of us in God's eyes, I believe. Repentance is an ongoing thing. It's God's grace that saves us, but we can't keep sinning the same thing over and over thinking "God forgives so I can do whatever I want".

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

sure, no man or organization is perfect...all are prone to error.

But our salvation and hope are explained in the scriptures, so its not hard to find out what we need to be doing to obtain salvation. And if thats the case, then it is also fairly easy to know if a religious group or organization are helping their flocks to do what is needed.

So regardless of how imperfect we are, we are not so imperfect that we can't determine if our organization is leading us in the right direction.

There is nothing we can do to gain salvation.
Salvation is God's alone to give. It can not be earned by doing things or not doing other things.

However I believe we will all have the opportunity of salvation in the after life, Christian or not.

We should follow Jesus teachings because we want to, not just to gain a reward.

Organisations are neither good nor bad, that is prerogative of those that lead them. They are all run by sinners. no one is pure.

 

[Pegg]

There is nothing we can do to gain salvation.
Salvation is God's alone to give. It can not be earned by doing things or not doing other things.

However I believe we will all have the opportunity of salvation in the after life, Christian or not.

We should follow Jesus teachings because we want to, not just to gain a reward.

Organisations are neither good nor bad, that is prerogative of those that lead them. They are all run by sinners. no one is pure.

May i ask, if there is nothing we can do to gain salvation, then why do we need to follow Jesus? Why did God direct us to his Son for advice on how to gain salvation if we dont need to 'do' anything?

I think the scriptures show that there are things that we must 'do' in order to be rewarded with salvation.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

May i ask, if there is nothing we can do to gain salvation, then why do we need to follow Jesus? Why did God direct us to his Son for advice on how to gain salvation if we dont need to 'do' anything?

I think the scriptures show that there are things that we must 'do' in order to be rewarded with salvation.

.............and I suggest they do not...
There is not a list of must do's that if you can tick every box then Hallelujah You win the prize...Salvation is yours....

However it is not simply a matter of belief as Calvin proposed.... and once saved always "saved" Hallelujah with God's Grace assured... If you are a chosen one.

What we do in this life should be for love of God and his creation, Not because of some lines on a page in the Bible.

The Prize is not there to be Won and it can not be earned. There is no set price on it.
Perhaps the afterlife is not as we suppose and is not even defined ( as the Jews might suppose).
We should not even be concerned about it. But live our life to the best we know how , in the love of God. Trusting in God and following the Example of Jesus.

There is no point at all, in mining or dredging the Bible, in the hope of finding the secret of everlasting life in this or the next world. That is a fruitless task and a waste of time.

The Bible can be used to inspire, instruct and Guide our steps in following Jesus... It is not a detailed road map.

 

[ChristineES]

It's not that we "do nothing", it's more than when we do works, we do it out of love rather than necessity. For example, we see hungry people and we help feed them- we don't feed them because we; 1. have fear of punishment if we don't, 2. believe we are going to saved by this deed. Instead we do it because we have compassion for them. We are not saved by those works, we are saved by God's grace but we need to learn Jesus' commands and to follow them.

That's how I've always seen it.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

It may be asked... do followers of other religions reach salvation?

They may live their lives following their beliefs and doing all things with a kind heart, to the best of their ability and for the benefit of others.
On the other hand, a professing Christian may live a life of selfishness and never help another soul, but follow their other religious duties to the letter.
Another Christian my do all those things give alms and give time to help others because he "Knows" this is required of him to save his soul.

Which of those deserves God's approbation. God Knows what we do, but equally importantly "Why" we do it.

We will all have the opportunity to repent our sins, in this life or the next, and eventually take our place in God's kingdom. For some, including "Christians" this process may be difficult.

 

[Pegg]

It may be asked... do followers of other religions reach salvation?

i guess that depends on which gods they are worshiping and if their gods have the ability, power and desire to save them.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

May i ask, if there is nothing we can do to gain salvation, then why do we need to follow Jesus? Why did God direct us to his Son for advice on how to gain salvation if we dont need to 'do' anything?

I think the scriptures show that there are things that we must 'do' in order to be rewarded with salvation.

The reason we follow Jesus is out of love. I've said once and I'll say it again, we act not to save ourselves, but to follow Christ out of shear love and devotion for what God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit have outlined for us. Without conceit for those who do not understand a more stringent pov. See, the simple, "treat others as yourself "will suffice. The rest is important, but recognise your listeners or they may not listen to you. Stick with building relationships, the connection with those who are upcoming in the faith and those who are not. That awesome movie about Lincoln says it best, "Time is the great thickener of all things." So plant the seed and allow the ones who know how to nurturer and develop those who are not quite but to speed with the more rigorous aspects of our spirituality.

I got out of that frame of mind of overbearance and have led more people to Christ with the God-given law of love God and your neighbor. Honey vs vinegar.

Pegg, out of all the JW's, you have been very direct and polite and I love you for that intuitiveness. Don't let the yeast of the Pharisees consume you.

Proverbs 16:18 (NIV)

Pride goes before destruction,
a haughty spirit before a fall.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

i guess that depends on which gods they are worshiping and if their gods have the ability, power and desire to save them.

I find that an odd statement from a Christian.
There can be only one God.
What ever form our worship takes we are all worshipping the one God.
God has brought knowledge at different times and to different peoples, he has spoken to each of us in the ways that we can understand.
There is an infinite number of names for God.

It is pride that causes us to consider other religions as false. God in his mercy has called all of us in ways that please him. It is not for us to object or think ourselves superior. Some might be led to join us, some may be guided not to.
The Holy Spirit Guides us all, what ever names we might use

 

[Pegg]

The reason we follow Jesus is out of love. I've said once and I'll say it again, we act not to save ourselves, but to follow Christ out of shear love and devotion for what God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit have outlined for us.

i agree that love certainly becomes the dominating factor once we come to know God... but it never is at the beginning. In fact, i'd say that it is because of the promises of salvation that people take the time to learn more in the first place.... and i've seen this over and over again.

People first learn the benefits, and as their faith and knowledge grows, so does their love for God and their willingness to obey his laws. It takes time & knowledge before motivation sets in.

Without conceit for those who do not understand a more stringent pov. See, the simple, "treat others as yourself "will suffice. The rest is important, but recognise your listeners or they may not listen to you. Stick with building relationships, the connection with those who are upcoming in the faith and those who are not. That awesome movie about Lincoln says it best, "Time is the great thickener of all things." So plant the seed and allow the ones who know how to nurturer and develop those who are not quite but to speed with the more rigorous aspects of our spirituality.

I got out of that frame of mind of overbearance and have led more people to Christ with the God-given law of love God and your neighbor. Honey vs vinegar.

Pegg, out of all the JW's, you have been very direct and polite and I love you for that intuitiveness. Don't let the yeast of the Pharisees consume you.

Proverbs 16:18 (NIV)

the number one thing to remember is this: 1John 5:3 For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome,

there are requirements to be met...and those requirements are found right throughout the christian scriptures. So we can't claim that we are all going to be saved unless we are observing and obeying the commandments.

Its not Pharisaical to inform people of those commandments is it? It would be Pharisaical to 'add' to the commandments, i agree. But when salvation is dependent upon our subjection and obedience, then its absolutely necessary to ensure that we include those things in our teachings. People need to know what those commandment are dont they?

 

[Pegg]

I find that an odd statement from a Christian.
There can be only one God.
What ever form our worship takes we are all worshipping the one God.
God has brought knowledge at different times and to different peoples, he has spoken to each of us in the ways that we can understand.
There is an infinite number of names for God.

It is pride that causes us to consider other religions as false. God in his mercy has called all of us in ways that please him. It is not for us to object or think ourselves superior. Some might be led to join us, some may be guided not to.
The Holy Spirit Guides us all, what ever names we might use

the truth is there is only one God, true.

But not all are worshipping him.

And just as it was in ancient times, God reveals himself and invites mankind to worship him....but its according to 'his' terms, not ours. He decides 'how' worship must be carried out, not us.

If we are not worshipping him according to his instructions, then we are not worshipping him nor does he recognise us.


And besides, he has a name... if we dont recognize his name, how can we claim to worship him?