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No conflict between God and science

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
IOWs many people do not realise that science is designed to find naturalistic answers only and think that it finds the truth always.
Once again I'm prompted to recommend the Barbara Forrest article and note her Arthur Strahler quote:

In contrasting the Western religions with science, the most important criterion of distinction is that the supernatural or spiritual realm is unknowable in response to human attempts to gain knowledge of it in the same manner that humans gain knowledge of the natural realm (by experience).... Given this fiat by the theistic believers, science simply ignores the supernatural as being outside the scope of scientific inquiry. Scientists in effect are saying: "You religious believers set up your postulates as truths, and we take you at your word. By definition, you render your beliefs unassailable and unavailable." This attitude is not one of surrender, but simply an expression of the logical impossibility of proving the existence of something about which nothing can possibly be known through scientific investigation.​
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Really? Please give examples. Where, for example, does science support the first book of Genesis?

Doesn't science agree almost with the order of the appearance of life forms on earth?
Doesn't science agree that the early earth was dark and surrounded by thick cloud and covered in water and formless (flat, no mountains and valleys etc)?
Doesn't science agree that the expanse of the sky was formed and separated the water above the sky (clouds) from the water below the sky (ocean)?
Doesn't science agree that the mountains rose and valleys sunk down and the dry land was separated from the oceans?
Doesn't science agree that there are vast reserves of water in the earth's mantle which could have spewed out to create the initial oceans and cloud cover?
(I have a good imagination and am taking bits and pieces about the creation from other parts of the Bible as well to add to the picture)

Simply wrong. Humans have invented all sorts of religious literature throughout the ages. The Bible is one example of such, but very far from the only one. it is no more 'plausibly true' than any other as far as anyone can see.

Atheists and non believers have been attacking it for so long that you are more likely to find the lies in books and on the internet than the truth about the Bible. And the attacks go on. Me thinketh that they protest too much.
Consider the length some people go to malign the story of Jesus and show it is not true. This same sort of thing has happened with many parts of the Bible.

Well, that is the claim. But details are very few and far between and subject to drastic re-interpretation of the text.

The text of the OT was understood to a large extent and prophecies about the Messiah were understood to a large extent but reinterpretation was necessary when the Messiah turned up and showed what the prophecies actually meant.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Some people feel the bible has 100% everything there is to know about life. Anything left out of the bible has no authoritative say. So, since the big bang is not in the bible, it really depends on the individual christian to believe it. Nonetheless, the only reason I can think they are "compatible" is that the bible never mentions it. A kind of default based on nothing to compare the big bang to in regards to creation versus formation of the physical universe.

Genesis begins with God brooding over the deep. This imagery suggests an initial state of inertial nothingness. Then God says, "let there be light!" Science would call this zero point energy, that is hidden in space, becoming concentrated and manifest to define inertial reference.

Ironically, the Big Bang theory was invented by a Catholic priest.

A Belgian priest named Georges Lemaître first suggested the big bang theory in the 1920s, when he theorized that the universe began from a single primordial atom.
Georges Lemaître was a priest who tried to build a bridge between religion and science. This was interrupted by WWI, where he became an artillery officer. After the war, he would move to America and would go on to get a PhD from MIT in Physics.

When it comes to the formation and evolution of the universe and life, science has two conceptual problems. The first problem is, the big bang theory, like evolutionary theory, does not tell us how the original singularity appears; primordial atom or first cell, so the rest of the theory follows from this building process.

The formation process behind the singularity should have an impact on what would come next. Without knowledge of this earlier beginning, we leave something important out. The analogy is describing a person, whom we just met ,without knowing anything of their childhood or their past. This unknown beginning could have shaped the rest of their life. If we do not know it, we may draw the right conclusions, based on the limited data available, but not the correct conclusion, based on all possible data including the beginning. In this stranger analogy, if we do not know the past we may contribute behavior to genetics, when in reality, it may have been based on early conditioning. We need two points to draw the correct line. One starting point does not allow us to know the vector of the line.

In the case of Creation and Evolution, science makes use of a God of dice approach, to create occurrences; singularity and first cell, so the theory can appear to have a solid starting place. This is magic, if we do not also have logic behind the dice. Religion uses an omniscience God with rational skills, who can engineer a primordial atom or first cell, using things already available in the void. Neither can be proven, but I like the rational engineering approach better, since this is how applied science works. Engineers do not build bridges or space ships by creating a random foundation with dice. They do not dump all the building materials in her river and expect a bridge to appear after thousands of tries. Engineers will make use of proven science and available material, and then reason new ways to organize it; brooding over the deep. Creation teaches us not to depend on the whims of the gods; dice, but to have a rational plan; applied science.

The second problem for cosmology is connected to the second law of thermodynamics. This law states that the entropy of the universe has to increase. Since entropy will absorb energy when it increases, and since entropy has to forever increase, this implies energy is being made unusable to the universe. The second law implies that a pool of dead energy is accumulating. This is energy is conserved ; energy conservation, but it is not reusable by the universe, since it is tied up in ever increasing entropy. This is left out of the current big bang theory. It implies the inertial universe is shrinking in terms of its energy budget. There are not many laws of science and if you break any of these laws, any theory should be made void.

Ironically, concepts like heaven and hell would be consistent with dead pool energy. Dead pool energy is conserved, but in a way that is not fully reusable by the inertial universe. However, it should have properties that could be defined by science, but these properties would be limited to what goes on in the dead pool.

Since dead pool energy is derived from entropy, and entropy is a state variable, meaning each state of matter has a given amount of measurable entropy, conservation of dead pool energy would imply lingering memories of previous states. It is like the past is recorded by the universe and lingers based on energy conservation. We can infer this through time delayed energy signals from the past, that represent matter states that once were.

For example, galaxies can be a hundred million light year in size and appear to be coordinated. This makes no sense, since the speed of light is too slow, at that scale to use gravity to connect all things in real time. The million year time delays should lead to chaos. One explanation is dead pool energy has memories of earlier states which set the trajectory for the present and future. Our DNA has memories from the past that apply to today, but these cannot fully recreate the past, since the energy of the past was higher, than now. Cosmology appears to overlap dead pool and real time energy, instead of keep these separate. The bible says these are different realms with limited overlap.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Do you realize that means it either was interpreted falsely or is currently so?

The basic message is always understood but the details change as evidence turns up to point us in a certain direction. Genesis was understood in history certain ways according to the science of the day and that basic message that God created it all has not changed. The basic message has not changed and not we can understand it in terms of the science of the day, and it fits.

Well, that is your opinion, but the scientific community disagrees.

Some people disagree but if science is finding out that Genesis is true then that is how it is. People just don't want to believe and so are more willing to make fun of the idea that science and Genesis agree than to seriously consider it.
Who is the scientific community anyway?
 

Goddess Kit

Active Member
If Genesis is inaccurate in how the world was created according to science, then why should I believe that anything else in the book is accurate? I mean, these supposed divinely inspired writers were receiving the word of god, correct? Wouldn't god know the workings of the world? Apparently not, according to the bible.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Genesis begins with God brooding over the deep. This imagery suggests an initial state of inertial nothingness. Then God says, "let there be light!" Science would call this zero point energy, that is hidden in space, becoming concentrated and manifest to define inertial reference.

Ironically, the Big Bang theory was invented by a Catholic priest.


Georges Lemaître was a priest who tried to build a bridge between religion and science. This was interrupted by WWI, where he became an artillery officer. After the war, he would move to America and would go on to get a PhD from MIT in Physics.

When it comes to the formation and evolution of the universe and life, science has two conceptual problems. The first problem is, the big bang theory, like evolutionary theory, does not tell us how the original singularity appears; primordial atom or first cell, so the rest of the theory follows from this building process.

The formation process behind the singularity should have an impact on what would come next. Without knowledge of this earlier beginning, we leave something important out. The analogy is describing a person, whom we just met ,without knowing anything of their childhood or their past. This unknown beginning could have shaped the rest of their life. If we do not know it, we may draw the right conclusions, based on the limited data available, but not the correct conclusion, based on all possible data including the beginning. In this stranger analogy, if we do not know the past we may contribute behavior to genetics, when in reality, it may have been based on early conditioning. We need two points to draw the correct line. One starting point does not allow us to know the vector of the line.

In the case of Creation and Evolution, science makes use of a God of dice approach, to create occurrences; singularity and first cell, so the theory can appear to have a solid starting place. This is magic, if we do not also have logic behind the dice. Religion uses an omniscience God with rational skills, who can engineer a primordial atom or first cell, using things already available in the void. Neither can be proven, but I like the rational engineering approach better, since this is how applied science works. Engineers do not build bridges or space ships by creating a random foundation with dice. They do not dump all the building materials in her river and expect a bridge to appear after thousands of tries. Engineers will make use of proven science and available material, and then reason new ways to organize it; brooding over the deep. Creation teaches us not to depend on the whims of the gods; dice, but to have a rational plan; applied science.

The second problem for cosmology is connected to the second law of thermodynamics. This law states that the entropy of the universe has to increase. Since entropy will absorb energy when it increases, and since entropy has to forever increase, this implies energy is being made unusable to the universe. The second law implies that a pool of dead energy is accumulating. This is energy is conserved ; energy conservation, but it is not reusable by the universe, since it is tied up in ever increasing entropy. This is left out of the current big bang theory. It implies the inertial universe is shrinking in terms of its energy budget. There are not many laws of science and if you break any of these laws, any theory should be made void.

Ironically, concepts like heaven and hell would be consistent with dead pool energy. Dead pool energy is conserved, but in a way that is not fully reusable by the inertial universe. However, it should have properties that could be defined by science, but these properties would be limited to what goes on in the dead pool.

Since dead pool energy is derived from entropy, and entropy is a state variable, meaning each state of matter has a given amount of measurable entropy, conservation of dead pool energy would imply lingering memories of previous states. It is like the past is recorded by the universe and lingers based on energy conservation. We can infer this through time delayed energy signals from the past, that represent matter states that once were.

For example, galaxies can be a hundred million light year in size and appear to be coordinated. This makes no sense, since the speed of light is too slow, at that scale to use gravity to connect all things in real time. The million year time delays should lead to chaos. One explanation is dead pool energy has memories of earlier states which set the trajectory for the present and future. Our DNA has memories from the past that apply to today, but these cannot fully recreate the past, since the energy of the past was higher, than now. Cosmology appears to overlap dead pool and real time energy, instead of keep these separate. The bible says these are different realms with limited overlap.

"Suggests?"

Anyone can make intelligent guesses. I can't imagine Moses way back when coming up with the big bang because god told him to write (?) let there be light.

Where would he get that knowledge?
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
I, for one, cannot see why the prophecies in the Bible which have come true are not good evidence for the truth of the Bible and thus a creator God.

Is this even serious? The bible isn't even self-consistent; it's disjointed, incoherent, and riddled with contradictions.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
In what way?

In it's history and in the creation story. You can dismiss the supernatural but that is a philosophical position. IMO fulfilled prophecies show the likelihood of the other supernatural stuff to be true.

Well, that's a bold claim. Which atheists? This atheist doesn't see it like that at all.

Do you see any other Holy Book as being more plausible? and why?

Much of it simply doesn't.

If it is the truth then it applies to this age because it shows us about God and what He is like and what He wants and what He is doing etc. If it is true it applies to all humanity in all ages and that is because of what it tells us.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Doesn't science agree almost with the order of the appearance of life forms on earth?

No.

Doesn't science agree that the early earth was dark and surrounded by thick cloud and covered in water and formless (flat, no mountains and valleys etc)?

No.

Doesn't science agree that the expanse of the sky was formed and separated the water above the sky (clouds) from the water below the sky (ocean)?
No.

Doesn't science agree that the mountains rose and valleys sunk down and the dry land was separated from the oceans?
Only in general terms.

Doesn't science agree that there are vast reserves of water in the earth's mantle which could have spewed out to create the initial oceans and cloud cover?

No.

(I have a good imagination and am taking bits and pieces about the creation from other parts of the Bible as well to add to the picture)

Atheists and non believers have been attacking it for so long that you are more likely to find the lies in books and on the internet than the truth about the Bible. And the attacks go on. Me thinketh that they protest too much.

I looked into the archeology, the geology, and the paleontology. The Biblical description isn't accurate.

Consider the length some people go to malign the story of Jesus and show it is not true. This same sort of thing has happened with many parts of the Bible.
Or honest people realized that the Biblical description is wrong.

The text of the OT was understood to a large extent and prophecies about the Messiah were understood to a large extent but reinterpretation was necessary when the Messiah turned up and showed what the prophecies actually meant.

Exactly. That means no actual prophesy and no actual testability.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Is this even serious? The bible isn't even self-consistent; it's disjointed, incoherent, and riddled with contradictions.
(While science can bask is the glow emanating from the ever harmonious relationship between general relativity and quantum mechanics.)

Now, let's get back to serious discussion.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
In it's history and in the creation story.

The creation story is simply wrong.

Do you see any other Holy Book as being more plausible? and why?

Your original claim was "even atheists realise that the Bible is the only plausibly true holy book" - the bible isn't plausibly true at all (it's not even self-consistent). Other holy books are irrelevant but to the extent I'm familiar with them, they are equally implausible.

If it is the truth then it applies to this age because it shows us about God and what He is like and what He wants and what He is doing etc. If it is true it applies to all humanity in all ages and that is because of what it tells us.

If it's true - but if parts of the bible are true, it makes the god character seriously unpleasant.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Truth is truth, even if spoken by a liar.

Mankind's interpretation of God's words are the main problem.

The Catholic church used to cut of the testicles of choir boys to make sure that their voices remained angelic. They are called castrati. This prevented "go forth and multiply" (a commandment of God to have kids).

The Catholic church (under Bloody Mary, the daughter of King Henry VIII of Great Britain) chopped of the heads of over 150 Anglican priests because they refused to wear the right robes. She was hoping to undo the Anglican religion and force people back to what she perceived to be the true religion (Catholicism).

During the Inquisition, agnostics and atheists were tortured to convert to Catholicism, and then killed immediately before converting back (for which a man was made a saint for supporting his religion).

Testicle chopping, head chopping, and tortured conversion, are all a few of the examples of mankind misinterpreting God's commands.

Science finds truths, and those truths often disagree with long held beliefs of religious men. Scientists were burnt at the stake for suggesting that asteroids fall from God's perfect heavens (aka sky). The church was dead wrong, and their opponents were "not just merely dead, they were most sincerely dead" (quotation of Wizard of Oz...Munchkins describing the Wicked Witch of the East).

I would be hard pressed to find many examples of God's words being wrong. Perhaps Jonah living in a whale is a bit far-fetched. But, in general, God wants us to do good things, and I am sure that he would not condone the many sins of the church.

I have long held that science shows us the way to understand God and the universe.

For example, theists say that the universe is 6,000 years old (dating it from the bible). Scientists say that it is 13.4 billion years old, using comoving observers (identified by homogeneous and isotropic background radiation indicating little movement since the Big Bang, and using Freidman's Equation to calculate the age. General Relativity says that time slows in strong gravitational fields, and Special Relativity says that time slows at relativistic (near the speed of light) speeds. Thus, science "could" completely agree with religion due to the fact that time might pass slower where God is, relative to our time. That is, time isn't the same for all observers, and depending on conditions, both religion and science might agree.

I agree that science isn't the enemy. I also agree that all atheists are scientists. All scientists are certainly not atheists (and there are many examples of religious scientists).
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
(While science can bask is the glow emanating from the ever harmonious relationship between general relativity and quantum mechanics.)

That science is disjointed and incomplete is not in dispute or remarkable. That a work that's being claimed as a message from the creator of the universe, is disjointed and contradictory, tends to suggest that it isn't such a message. Why would a god provide a contradictory message?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
That science is disjointed and incomplete is not in dispute or remarkable. That a work that's being claimed as a message from the creator of the universe, is disjointed and contradictory, tends to suggest that it isn't such a message. Why would a god provide a contradictory message?
Sorry, but @Brian2 and I were having a "big boy" discussion.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
There is no reason to move anywhere when science is showing the Bible to be correct.
How is science showing that the Bible is correct?
Even atheists realise that the Bible is the only plausibly true holy book.
Atheists talk about the Bible because most of them were "formerly" Christians.
Christianity is still the largest religion, with 2.4 adherents, but it is not the only religion with a holy book....
There are 1.9 billion Muslims and the 1.2 billion Hindus and they each have their own holy books.

Much to the chagrin of Christians, they do not own God or God's religion.
Scripture written thousands of years ago pertains to the age we live in because it is the truth.
Spiritual truth is eternal so that is still relevant to modern times. I was referring to the message from God and the social teachings and laws. I believe those need to be updated in every age because humanity and the world change over time, they do not remain static.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
Spock: "Stonn, she is yours. After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."​

It turns out that logic and science doesn't have all of the answers that we seek.

That doesn't make science wrong. It merely makes science insufficient.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
God is the author of all truth, and that includes scientific truth. This post is NOT proposing that we should start with the Bible and then go looking for evidence to support it. Scientific Method is fine as it is. What I'm saying is that there is no conflict between those truths that science genuinely comes by and the Creator of the Universe.

For example, we know about the Big Bang. I see no reason not to see the Big Bang as the moment God created the universe. We also know about evolution. I see no reason not to see evolution as God's modus operandi for creating all the various life forms, including humanity.

Come on, folks. It's not like all scientists are atheists.


Ok! Very Very Good. Someone finally sees God. In a time-based causal universe, God's actions can be seen. It's nice to see someone is looking.

One's actions define one. There is much to see and Discover out there. Regardless of any and all the Beliefs in the world, God will come down to what actually exists. One should not fight for Beliefs. One should fight for Truth.

I have always said science will Discover God before religion. Why? Science walks toward God and Science corrects the errors. Poor old religion is stuck in a box. Religions think they have all the answers and have you ever heard of religions correcting anything??? Religions think they are never wrong.

Granted the forward movement seem slow however one can cross the world even taking baby steps given enough time. On the other hand one must take a step forward to really get anywhere.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
As you said. Math! It all fits together perfectly.
 
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