No Doubt about Proof.

[DNB]

Yes I agree, that virtue is indeed a potential within us all. I would offer though, there are many levels of humility, if we wanted to be more humble where could we look?

I know of one teaching that many would know by heart. Jesus taught us to turn the other cheek and Jesus showed us what it meant to turn the other cheek to the extent of crucifixion. How many of us would practice that level of humility?

Regards Tony

Yes, in that regard, Jesus would be my greatest mentor - untouchable. But, again, because I understood the principle of such an act, for many others will find it ludicrous. Experience allowed me, not to conceive of it on my own, necessarily, but to appreciate the wisdom once I heard it.

 

[Truthseeker]

OK. How do you define faith?
If there were adequate evidence, like there is for evolution, plate tectonics or heliocentricity, there would be no religious controversy in the world.

I have two choices from Merriam-Webster:

2a(1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God

(2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion

For me the first is faith. The second is a Christian definition or a Muslim definition if you like. The operative word is "traditional" that decides it for me. Belief should be decided by others around you like clergy, for instance. The Baha'i Faith has no clergy for good reason. Our unity is not in uniformity, but diversity. Everybody is free to understand our scriptures for ourselves. The only thing forbidden is to try to form a group in opposition to the administrative order which is elected without campaigning.

Also I am called Truthseeker9 for good reason. I am loyal to truth and God as much as I can.

I repeat, the is adequate evidence for anyone that looks fairly. Unfortunately, very few do.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It is never for sale, and never will be, so please walk on by if you are not interested in the love being offerd in this OP you came to by your own choice.

No, I am not interested in any phony love, which asks me to have my nose cut to see the Emperor's New clothes.

 

[Truthseeker]

No. This is a question of objective truth and epistemology, not social utility.

Do you think you know objective truth? My position is that this is impossible for humans, at least to knowledge when it comes to religion and God. For some science and mathematics there is high degree of objectivity that can be attained. The trouble is science and mathematics doesn't give us purpose in life, human values, or love. Science is value free. Over time science and religion split us off a holistic frame of reference to truth. We need both in a complementary holistic way.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I know too little about the teaching in Baha`i and about the Bab to truly be able to say if the Bab was divine or not in his teaching, But since I do not know, it would also be wrong to just brush it off as false.

Just to clarify something here....

To brush something off as false, is not necessarily synonymous with not accepting something as true.

There are 2 different claims that can be made here.
1. X is true.
2. X is false.

Not accepting 1 as true does NOT automatically imply that you'll accept 2 as true.

Both are claims and both have a burden of proof. If neither meets his burden, then neither claim can be rationally accepted.

For practical intents and purposes however, one of both is going to be the null-hypothesis and be assumed.

For example, the existence of undetectable human eating unicorns.
There is no evidence for them, so no reason to accept the claim as it can't meet its burden of proof.
The same goes for the claim that they do NOT exist however.

Yet for practical intents and purposes, we will live our lives as if we don't have to worry about undetectable human eating unicorns, since there is no evidence to suggest they do exist. And for practical intents and purposes, non-existence is assumed until existence is demonstrated.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Just to clarify something here....

To brush something off as false, is not necessarily synonymous with not accepting something as true.

There are 2 different claims that can be made here.
1. X is true.
2. X is false.

Not accepting 1 as true does NOT automatically imply that you'll accept 2 as true.

Both are claims and both have a burden of proof. If neither meets his burden, then neither claim can be rationally accepted.

For practical intents and purposes however, one of both is going to be the null-hypothesis and be assumed.

For example, the existence of undetectable human eating unicorns.
There is no evidence for them, so no reason to accept the claim as it can't meet its burden of proof.
The same goes for the claim that they do NOT exist however.

Yet for practical intents and purposes, we will live our lives as if we don't have to worry about undetectable human eating unicorns, since there is no evidence to suggest they do exist. And for practical intents and purposes, non-existence is assumed until existence is demonstrated.

Why would I critique a faith i do not hold or follow myself?

I do not know enough to say if Baha'i has is right or wrong. And as a sufi, I have no problems with people believe different than myself.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Why would I critique a faith i do not hold or follow myself?

I do not know enough to say if Baha'i has is right or wrong. And as a sufi, I have no problems with people believe different than myself.

I think you misunderstood my post.

The part I quoted touched on the idea of disagreeing with "X is true" means that you'll agree with "X is false".
I just wanted to clarify that that is not the case.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I think you misunderstood my post.

The part I quoted touched on the idea of disagreeing with "X is true" means that you'll agree with "X is false".
I just wanted to clarify that that is not the case.

I do not hold this view
Just because I believe something is right does not mean it is. The current understanding can later be shown to be wrong.
And to use the phrases right/wrong does no longer feels as the way to think (for me)

 

[Link]

The leaders from God are proofs of God for 3 reasons:

(1) They are the light of God pointing to his reality and give us knowledge of him
(2) They are with every soul as their companion of reason the light of reason is through them and they fight the Satanic influence in every soul to by whatever God allows and permits
(3) The power they display through miracles point to the power of God as the only possible explanation - the power can't come from nothing and it's coming from an ultimate source of power.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The leaders from God are proofs of God for 3 reasons:

(1) They are the light of God pointing to his reality and give us knowledge of him
(2) They are with every soul as their companion of reason the light of reason is through them and they fight the Satanic influence in every soul to by whatever God allows and permits
(3) The power they display through miracles point to the power of God as the only possible explanation - the power can't come from nothing and it's coming from an ultimate source of power.

Quran verse 4:69

"All who obey Allah and the messenger are in the company of those on whom is the Grace of Allah,- of the prophets (who teach), the sincere (lovers of Truth), the witnesses (who testify), and the Righteous (who do good): Ah! what a beautiful fellowship!"

No boubt about that proof.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

That God is known by beings we see are men, but are not.

Proof of the Spirit are valid rational and logical proofs.

And how do we know these "beings" are more than men? Because they say so?

“It was disclosed to me through Divine revelation a few years later that the Messiah that had been promised from the earliest time to this nation and that the last Mahdī who was destined to appear after the deterioration of Islam and who was to be granted direct guidance from God and who was to provide once again the spiritual nourishment, as had been preordained and about whom glad tidings had also been given by the Holy Prophet, may peace and blessings of Allāh be upon him, himself 1300 years ago, is none other than me. Divine revelations, in this regard, came to me so clearly and persistently that no room for even the least doubt was left in this matter.”​

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And how do we know these "beings" are more than men? Because they say so?

“It was disclosed to me through Divine revelation a few years later that the Messiah that had been promised from the earliest time to this nation and that the last Mahdī who was destined to appear after the deterioration of Islam and who was to be granted direct guidance from God and who was to provide once again the spiritual nourishment, as had been preordained and about whom glad tidings had also been given by the Holy Prophet, may peace and blessings of Allāh be upon him, himself 1300 years ago, is none other than me. Divine revelations, in this regard, came to me so clearly and persistently that no room for even the least doubt was left in this matter.”​

It is up to us to investigate CG.

You quoted from a link to do with , Hazrat Mirza Ghulam a person that ended up claiming to be the promised Messiah. You should post the source CG. (It is a RF rule)

I personally see that claim is false. (There are many wonderful teachings reflecting the wrirings he read on the Bab and Baha'u'llah and said he has mastered) I can say in confidence of his error, that I have found proof that he can not be as he has claimed. I also have evidence of how the claim was made in a way that was not truthful and when challenged made no reply.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

It is up to us to investigate CG.

You quoted from a link to do with , Hazrat Mirza Ghulam a person that ended up claiming to be the promised Messiah. You should post the source CG. (It is a RF rule)

I personally see that claim is false. (There are many wonderful teachings reflecting the wrirings he read on the Bab and Baha'u'llah and said he has mastered) I can say in confidence of his error, that I have found proof that he can not be as he has claimed. I also have evidence of how the claim was made in a way that was not truthful and when challenged made no reply.

Regards Tony

I did that on purpose because I wanted to see if you'd assume it was Baha'u'llah, because the claims are so similar. And yes, lots of us here are investigating the claims made by the Baha'i Faith.

 

[Alienistic]

If I want spiritual knowledge, what is the source we turn to, ourselves or an example?

Know oneself, be a student of oneself and get to know the programming/script written within?

What is it the Proof and Evidence for Faith in God, the Spirit that drives us?

How would you know it is not some kind of clever counterfeit spirit appearing and feeling all lovely and of light that has people fooled? That someone surrendered to an evil turd in order to suffer a little less but be psychologically controlled by it?

It is logical that the Bab demonstrated a high level of spiritual capacity and it is logical it is proof to those that are looking for that spiritual knowledge.

Even if the Bab spoke well, even an evil person can speak well, say amazing and spiritual, fluffy sounding things. Anymore, all someone usually has to say is “a wave in an ocean, all is one, there is only one god, be good, oh please son of man listen and heed all of my words, the square root of the holy number divided by crystal light multiplied by quantum oneness divided by soul essence evolution into universal one worldness and they are perceived as some sort of spiritual guru and expert.

Even if the Bab were a decent being, humans always will do a great job of distorting and ruining anything genuinely “good” such as the “religion” that was formed.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Even if the Bab was a decent being, humans always will do a great job of distorting and ruining anything genuinely “good” such as the “religion” that was formed.

Luckily we always get another chance, and the chance to do better is given each and every day we wake up in this reality.

Yes, the guide is written in to all of us, education and practice of virtue brings it out from within, and it then shines on to others. This is a couple of Hidden Words given by Baha'u'llah.

O SON OF BEING!
Thou art My lamp and My light is in thee. Get thou from it thy radiance and seek none other than Me. For I have created thee rich and have bountifully shed My favor upon thee.

O SON OF BEING!
With the hands of power I made thee and with the fingers of strength I created thee; and within thee have I placed the essence of My light. Be thou content with it and seek naught else, for My work is perfect and My command is binding. Question it not, nor have a doubt thereof.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Luckily we always get another chance, and the chance to do better is given each and every day we wake up in this reality.

Yes, the guide is written in to all of us, education and practice of virtue brings it out from within, and it then shines on to others. This is a couple of Hidden Words given by Baha'u'llah.

O SON OF BEING!
Thou art My lamp and My light is in thee. Get thou from it thy radiance and seek none other than Me. For I have created thee rich and have bountifully shed My favor upon thee.

O SON OF BEING!
With the hands of power I made thee and with the fingers of strength I created thee; and within thee have I placed the essence of My light. Be thou content with it and seek naught else, for My work is perfect and My command is binding. Question it not, nor have a doubt thereof.

Regards Tony

"seek none other than Me." "within thee have I placed the essence of My light. Be thou content with it and seek naught else..." And who does this? In all things and everything a person does and thinks, they seek none other than God? And is content with nothing but the light within?

Now I've also heard, it might have been Abdul Baha', to balance your spirituality by walking with practical feet. But, the other problem for religious people is that many of them put on an air of spirituality when at a religious meeting or something. But in everyday life, they live for themselves. I've known a couple of religious people, one a Baha'i, one a Christian, at first, they'd pray all the day and acted very holy. And this was at a construction job. As time went on, they became more and more "normal". And soon it was hard to tell them apart from everybody else. So can religious people maintain those Holy, spiritual heights and still fit into everyday society?

 

[syo]

What is it the Proof and Evidence for Faith in God

The needed reality that is deist.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The needed reality that is deist.

That is a piece of the puzzle indeed, as creation is evidence and proof of a creator.

I see it is a limited knowledge though, because without guidance, we build our own concepts of God, which may be far from our purpose, which is to know and Love God.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"seek none other than Me." "within thee have I placed the essence of My light. Be thou content with it and seek naught else..." And who does this? In all things and everything a person does and thinks, they seek none other than God? And is content with nothing but the light within?

Oh what a wonderful thing that is CG, I highly recommend starting thar journey of self discovery.

We can only try CG.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But in everyday life, they live for themselves. I've known a couple of religious people, one a Baha'i, one a Christian, at first, they'd pray all the day and acted very holy. And this was at a construction job. As time went on, they became more and more "normal". And soon it was hard to tell them apart from everybody else. So can religious people maintain those Holy, spiritual heights and still fit into everyday society?

A person can only try and yes it is not easy to maintain a high standard of thoughts and action.

I too have been in Construction since 1986 and hope I was able to demonstrate that hard and productive work can be achieved along with a healthy spiritual perspective and practice in life.

In the end it is all done to help out each other, funny thing is, I ended up as a Work Health and Safety Advisor in civil construction.

Regards Tony