rational experiences
Veteran Member
A man the human says he was raised up as a baby toddler. Actually.
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No free will in closed system evidence of God?
- Thread starter robocop (actually)
- Start date
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
The concept of free will has been confused, because it was originally a concept that came from religion, such as in Genesis of the Bible. Atheism is like a mirror religion, so they have tried to create a contrary mirror image to the original concept, thereby adding confusion.
In the original Biblical sense, humans are the only species on earth, that has lost full contact with their natural instinct; fall from paradise. This departure offers new choices apart from instinct. All the other animals on earth are driven by instinct, which allows them to integrate with their species and with nature. We humans can deny our instinct and chose unnatural paths. We are no longer integrated by instinct, within ourself, with all other humans, nor with the earth. That was the original state of the pre-humans in Paradise; spoken of by Cain when he was banished.
The reason only humans can do this, and no other animal can, is because humans have evolved two centers of consciousness; inner self and ego. All animals have an inner self, just like humans. This center is connected to DNA and evolution, and defines critters as a species. The ego is only found in humans. It offers a secondary POV from which choices can be made both natural and unnatural.
In the story of Adam and Eve, Adam was originally alone in the garden of Eden. He had just an inner self. His instinct made him feel lonely since nature is composed of two; male and female. God puts Adam to sleep and forms another helpmate from his rib; Eve. Eve symbolizes the formation of the secondary center; ego. It was done by a cloning process from the Adam's DNA. The natural inner self projected a secondary.
It is the ego; Eve, who accepts the lie from Satan; learned knowledge of good and evil. The ego lack instinct and needs external learned knowledge. Both Adam; inner self and Eve; ego, lose paradise; loss of instinct, with this loss of instinct, due to the ego secondary; death appears due to loss of instinct. The ego is useful but bade choices made it lose its natural edge.
Conceptually, there had to be a time in human evolution when the secondary center first appears. It may have fluctuated at first; loss of soul, and then finally it stays on. There is evidence of early civilizations that appear, but abort, until one finally persists; stays on.
This advanced brain IT and goes beyond the analogy of an intelligent computer, to one that is not only intelligent but can spawn a secondary clone center, that can take the lead; new choices, but is still dependent on the primary to exist.
What appears to have happened is the inner self is still natural, but has also evolved new added layers that has been built upon the best new choices of the ego; higher human potential. We have the optimized modern inner self and the ego that falls short and needs to experiment to compensate; new data.
In the original Biblical sense, humans are the only species on earth, that has lost full contact with their natural instinct; fall from paradise. This departure offers new choices apart from instinct. All the other animals on earth are driven by instinct, which allows them to integrate with their species and with nature. We humans can deny our instinct and chose unnatural paths. We are no longer integrated by instinct, within ourself, with all other humans, nor with the earth. That was the original state of the pre-humans in Paradise; spoken of by Cain when he was banished.
The reason only humans can do this, and no other animal can, is because humans have evolved two centers of consciousness; inner self and ego. All animals have an inner self, just like humans. This center is connected to DNA and evolution, and defines critters as a species. The ego is only found in humans. It offers a secondary POV from which choices can be made both natural and unnatural.
In the story of Adam and Eve, Adam was originally alone in the garden of Eden. He had just an inner self. His instinct made him feel lonely since nature is composed of two; male and female. God puts Adam to sleep and forms another helpmate from his rib; Eve. Eve symbolizes the formation of the secondary center; ego. It was done by a cloning process from the Adam's DNA. The natural inner self projected a secondary.
It is the ego; Eve, who accepts the lie from Satan; learned knowledge of good and evil. The ego lack instinct and needs external learned knowledge. Both Adam; inner self and Eve; ego, lose paradise; loss of instinct, with this loss of instinct, due to the ego secondary; death appears due to loss of instinct. The ego is useful but bade choices made it lose its natural edge.
Conceptually, there had to be a time in human evolution when the secondary center first appears. It may have fluctuated at first; loss of soul, and then finally it stays on. There is evidence of early civilizations that appear, but abort, until one finally persists; stays on.
This advanced brain IT and goes beyond the analogy of an intelligent computer, to one that is not only intelligent but can spawn a secondary clone center, that can take the lead; new choices, but is still dependent on the primary to exist.
What appears to have happened is the inner self is still natural, but has also evolved new added layers that has been built upon the best new choices of the ego; higher human potential. We have the optimized modern inner self and the ego that falls short and needs to experiment to compensate; new data.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
How much free will do you think you have today?
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
None.
I will be compelled by my bringingup, education, religion, life experiences and circumstances.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Very good. It is possible, of course, to break away from certain things, yes, there may be social penalties, but I remember years ago people on LSD would.jump off roofs thinking they could fly. Of course you can guess what happened. So again, there are physical and, as you said, other limitations to so-called free will. Interesting discussion, thanks.
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
Free will is also connected to entropy and the second law.
Neurons expend about 90% of their metabolic energy pumping and exchanging ions, with the sodium-potassium cation pumps of most interest. This energy intensive pumping of cations results in sodium and potassium ions concentrated and segregated on opposite sides of the membrane. In essence, the ion pumping lowers the ionic entropy against the pull of the second law.
In solution, these two ions would like to blend to form a uniform solution. But the ion pumps places these ducks in two rows. It is like dropping salt into water and expecting it to dissolve. This is expected due to the second law. One would not expect to see salt suddenly falling out of solution, forming two piles segregated by atoms. This is way too much order for the second law. We would have lowered the entropy and now the second law has more potentials to act, due to the local entropy deficit we just created. The result is neuron have to fire, to allow the ions to mix to satisfy the second law.
Neurons are widely wired to many other neurons. The firing of one then many neurons, all of low entropy is also following the principle of needing to increase entropy on a wider scale. Which neurons will need to be fired is based on the entropic potentials, between, as current flows within the brain and down the spine; thought and action.
The wild card is language. Human language is not fully objective. Most of the words we use, do not even sound like the thing we use it to describe. I never heard a cat say the sound cat. This is human convention not based on any natural neural potential created by natural sound. What that means is the entropic potential of our stored language memories, will have an entropic value; state, but this is not necessarily based on the cause and affect to the sounds and the shapes of the words. The result is a logical movement of entropic current, through a subjective matrix of low entropy noises and sounds memories; rest neurons. This allows a subjective output to occur using the logic driven flow of entropic potential. This is part of free will since it is not fully determined by b a subjective thought matrix, via entropic potential.
The analogy is a fountain of water which adds potential to the water via a pump. After it leave the pump there is potential to fall by gravity. This potential will lower as it cascade to lower and lower potential, with pump constantly resetting the potential. The matrix of human language is part of this cascade of entropic flow, but it is a subjective matrix where word values are not as objective as the entropic potential. There is room for the flow to reorganize data for new connections, based on the subjective weight we apply to language and ideas. We can lose track of the natural flow of instinct due to the language matrix. This flow is not fully deterministic, except by entropic potential, since the matrix of language can be customized by each of us by subjectivity and imagination.
Neurons expend about 90% of their metabolic energy pumping and exchanging ions, with the sodium-potassium cation pumps of most interest. This energy intensive pumping of cations results in sodium and potassium ions concentrated and segregated on opposite sides of the membrane. In essence, the ion pumping lowers the ionic entropy against the pull of the second law.
In solution, these two ions would like to blend to form a uniform solution. But the ion pumps places these ducks in two rows. It is like dropping salt into water and expecting it to dissolve. This is expected due to the second law. One would not expect to see salt suddenly falling out of solution, forming two piles segregated by atoms. This is way too much order for the second law. We would have lowered the entropy and now the second law has more potentials to act, due to the local entropy deficit we just created. The result is neuron have to fire, to allow the ions to mix to satisfy the second law.
Neurons are widely wired to many other neurons. The firing of one then many neurons, all of low entropy is also following the principle of needing to increase entropy on a wider scale. Which neurons will need to be fired is based on the entropic potentials, between, as current flows within the brain and down the spine; thought and action.
The wild card is language. Human language is not fully objective. Most of the words we use, do not even sound like the thing we use it to describe. I never heard a cat say the sound cat. This is human convention not based on any natural neural potential created by natural sound. What that means is the entropic potential of our stored language memories, will have an entropic value; state, but this is not necessarily based on the cause and affect to the sounds and the shapes of the words. The result is a logical movement of entropic current, through a subjective matrix of low entropy noises and sounds memories; rest neurons. This allows a subjective output to occur using the logic driven flow of entropic potential. This is part of free will since it is not fully determined by b a subjective thought matrix, via entropic potential.
The analogy is a fountain of water which adds potential to the water via a pump. After it leave the pump there is potential to fall by gravity. This potential will lower as it cascade to lower and lower potential, with pump constantly resetting the potential. The matrix of human language is part of this cascade of entropic flow, but it is a subjective matrix where word values are not as objective as the entropic potential. There is room for the flow to reorganize data for new connections, based on the subjective weight we apply to language and ideas. We can lose track of the natural flow of instinct due to the language matrix. This flow is not fully deterministic, except by entropic potential, since the matrix of language can be customized by each of us by subjectivity and imagination.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
I do not know in what way your long post is connected to your first statement.
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
The function of the brain is based on the 2nd law, with the second law analogous to a potential to the future; entropy has to increase; future complexity.
The way our memory is set up, is not causal. There are about 7000 human languages which means the sounds/symbols of any language and reality content are subjectively attach by the manmade rules of language. How do you logically organize the illogic of language, which is what the entropy of the brain; 2nd law, will try to at the chemical level. The results results of chemical logic are not always what was expected, due the subjectivity of language, thereby adding choice to what should have been determinism.
Let me give an example, that might be easy to see. Back when I was young, the word "gay", meant festive; "don we now our gay apparel", from the Christmas song. Now gay means male homosexual. There is no a clear distinction for each meaning, with the same sound. An entropy increase can activate different context for the same word, thereby adding ambiguity to your mind. If language was more linear; one to one, there would be no doubt or choice. Language can add doubt and offers room for new choices.
Another example might be someone who is talking and says something that may be acceptable in his home group, but is not in the other group he is speaking with. We all try to censor ourself since not everyone reacts the same way to the same things said. One can end up hurting feelings instead of getting a laugh.
This is because language is not fully objective, with each person weighting different words differently. The movement of entropic currents does not care about the subjective whims of the ego, but is moving current based on logical chemical potential. This can trigger words out of ego context, since is not easy to make a subjective system objective. But this adds a wild card for new ways to organize ideas.
The ego and inner self both also appear to be connected to the second law. Both appear to be like an entropy magnetic used to increase entropy; narrow focus to wide angle. As the entropic potential of the ego floats over the cerebral matter, the neurons have to fire, so entropy can increase. The loss of soul; loss of ego, was often due to the entropic potential of the ego getting too low to trigger much; feel bland.
It is not exactly clear how to explain the entropic potential nature of the ego, since its function also reflects an integrated state of being.This may be why terms like soul and spirit were created. The ego is not matter, energy or force, but more like entropy or a possible path to the future; moves information to the future via the second law. Our self awareness is connected to sensing the continuous movements from past to future; what was and now is. It has a connection to time which is not exactly matter, energy or force, either. I like the term, time potential.
Time and entropy both propagate to the future. We cannot go back in time and become a child again. Entropy is the same way in that it has to go net forward; increase. The ideas of life after death takes into account both entropy and time; to a future state.
The brain by lowering cationic entropy and other forms of entropy, through the expenditure of energy, is like going back into time; adds time potential, to our memory. In essence, it recreates the past with the entropic potential of the ego and inner self brings this to the future. Like a fountain which always looks the same but different, the sense of self appears within the time flux.
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Joshua Pryce
Member
Influence shapes desires, needs and wants and relationships. That bad boy attracts women, and it becomes one following to another. That car is attractive to someone because of ideals. The need to eat certain foods comes from inspiration and dietary habits. Free will is the basis for spiritual connection which comes through personal heart choices and intentional mindsets. They do not come from our specific needs and wants but influence for others. Unless we are spiritual in which they would come from Gods spirit and Gods word.
zacariah88
Member
We have freewill God gives a choice to do good or evil is it that we put it in his hands.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
He tells us what is good and what is bad. Also, there are some innate characteristics within ourselves that might warn us about good vs. bad. Before I knew what God wanted, I decided what was good or bad. Some things are easier than others to apply to ourselves and behavior.