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No God of Love?

cottage

Well-Known Member
My view, or starting point, is that anything is logically possible if it isn't self-contradictory or made nonsensical by some other absurdity. So I cannot (and do not) discount the possibility of gods, spirits or 'God'. But while I cannot discount the possibility that these things might exist, I cannot on those terms alone allow belief in them. To commit one's self to believing in a possible God is an absurd notion, since a possible God is no God at all; for if there is a God he must be actual rather 'possible', but no god or gods are demonstrable. That is the logical view of my scepticism.

And now for the empirical ones: First of all, can we suppose the existence of a supernatural being from nature? In other words, if God is supernatural can we reasonably argue backwards from our world to something that is by definition totally otherworldly? For no matter what we experience it remains just that: an experience in the world of experience. And to claim a special experience is still to make the case for a feature of our world and not a supernatural one. Surely...surely, it is quite plain that by placing God in the world of experience we make God dependent upon the world of experience for his existence, which is absurd.

So far I've looked at the objective arguments. Now for the subjective reasons, and finally a logical conclusion. I ask myself, if there were an almighty single power, a supreme being who caused the existence of the world, one who ultimately carries responsibility for it, would I consider him (or it) worshipful or worthy of an emotional commitment? When we look about we see pain, suffering and great hardship. We also see happiness, satisfaction, love and contentedness. But of course the former conditions are not in the least mitigated by the latter conditions. To all of us will come indescribable sadness at the loss of those who are close to us, our own illness and deaths causing pain to those we leave behind. We live in a world where animals kill and eat other animals, where man kills and eats animals and where men kill each other. This is not a world designed by a being worthy of worship and love.

But now to a logical proof, and one that is easily demonstrated. Every living person can conceive of a world without pain and suffering; and we don't contradict ourselves in any way by such a conception. So we must ask ourselves this: if we, as imperfect, contingent creatures can conceive of such a world, why has the Creator not made it so? There is no answer that can conclude the necessity of pain and suffering because we've just demonstrated that there is no necessity. Therefore, if there is a God, he/it will not be a loving or beneficent being. And that doesn't of course disprove the existence of a supreme being; it only tells us what he/it is not, and that, in plain terms, is to say there is no loving God.

Cottage
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
In my faith, we believe that God is Love, as well as Truth. As for logic, I am not a truly logical person, anyway. :)
 

Azakel

Liebe ist für alle da
Surly though you do not doubt Aphrodite is a goddess, so then there is a god...goddess of Love ^_^
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
In my faith, we believe that God is Love, as well as Truth. As for logic, I am not a truly logical person, anyway. :)

Well, I guess that's what religious belief is all about. Faith so often requires the suspension of reason. :cover:

But while I cannot agree with your faith, I nevertheless respect your right to hold to them .:)

Regards

Cottage
 

GiantHouseKey

Well-Known Member
Greetings
In my faith, we believe that God is Love

Ok this one's been confusing me for a while:
"God is love"
Does that mean to say that God = Love? As in they equate?
In which case, we could say 'Love is God'? The way the equation is used is confusing.

Thank you
GhK.
 
If your only definition of a god is love or truth, than I believe in that god. I believe in love and truth.

Yes me too...

but if god = love and god = truth, then love = truth = goodness = power = justice = eternity = ubiquity... and so on to incorporate god's infinite features. If this is true then all these words become meaningless to humans, and we'd better stop using them the way we do.

A little random .. sorry.:eek:
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
People put rules and regulations into faiths- called dogma. When Jesus spoke of God worship- He talked of forgiveness and mercy. If someone is preaching to you and isn't being forgiving or merciful, it would safe to assume that person is just stating his or her own interpretation. Jesus also commanded us to not judge, to take the log out of our own eye and not to worry about the splinter in our brother's eye ( I used to have that passage for my signature.) Some people seem to not see those verses. I am not so in tuned with other faiths sacred writings as I am the Bible, so I won't comment on those.
I am not saying that these people are not true Christians, but as a bit self righteous. Everyone acts self-righteous at one time or another. :)
 

GiantHouseKey

Well-Known Member
ChristineES - I could name a whole list of bible quotes that say you should spread the word of Jesus. My favourite being Matthew 10:32. Old and New testement quotes say that you should share the good news. The Book of Acts and The Book of Revelations are a little less tolerant still.

What about these verses?

Can you answer my previous question about "God is Love", please?

GhK.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
Sorry, but the only thing I could give you was a quote from 1 John. As you can see, John said that God is love. He was one of the apostles. This is the best I could do.


1Jn 4:8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Below are listed some verses about God being truth. The problem with posting verses is that if one is not a Christian, and especially if one is not a theist, they will not believe in anything the Bible speaks of.

1Kings 17:24 And the woman said to Elijah, "Now I know that you are a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in your mouth is truth."
John 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
1Titus 3:15 if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of truth.
1Jn 4:6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
 

lunamoth

Will to love
ChristineES - I could name a whole list of bible quotes that say you should spread the word of Jesus. My favourite being Matthew 10:32. Old and New testement quotes say that you should share the good news. The Book of Acts and The Book of Revelations are a little less tolerant still.

What about these verses?

Can you answer my previous question about "God is Love", please?

GhK.

God is love and is the source of all love and when we love we participate in God, with God, through God. Love is not just the emotional feeling of attachement and desire, but to want the best for others. As such it is a choice deliberately made toward actions that nurture, heal, feed, support, hear and comfort those around you.

To take the Gospel out into the world is to take the love of Christ, the love of God, out into the world. Most people by now have heard of Christianity and the good news that love has conquered death and we have all been made righteous with God through Christ. So, the Christian mission is not about telling or convincing through words, but living the love of God out in our lives.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Well, I guess that's what religious belief is all about. Faith so often requires the suspension of reason. :cover:

I'd just like to quote Robert L Millet, Dean of Religious Education at Brigham Young University. I believe this is how he would respond to your comment, Cottage. He explained, in recounting a time in his life when he wanted to be able to believe certain things, but was struggling in the face of criticism from people who were trying to dissuage him...

"The answers to what was troubling me were for the time being beyond my present capacity to comprehend. In time the answers would come, answers that would be as satisfying to the mind as they were soothing to the heart.... The Spirit touched my heart, told me things my mind did not yet understand, and I was then in a position to proceed confidently with my work until my head caught up with my heart.... I have come to know that although ours in a thoughtful faith, one that requires reason as well as revelation, it is often necessary to place our unanswered questions on a shelf, to suspend intellectual judgment while findings from study manage to catch up with the feelings and impressions obtained from the Spirit of God."
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Translation:

Suspend your reason, decide you will believe then - Viola!

You will believe it.
If you are addressing your remarks to me (or to anyone else in particular) it would be helpful if you were to quote the quote you're responding to. :)
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
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I'd just like to quote Robert L Millet, Dean of Religious Education at Brigham Young University. I believe this is how he would respond to your comment, Cottage. He explained, in recounting a time in his life when he wanted to be able to believe certain things, but was struggling in the face of criticism from people who were trying to dissuage him...

"The answers to what was troubling me were for the time being beyond my present capacity to comprehend. In time the answers would come, answers that would be as satisfying to the mind as they were soothing to the heart.... The Spirit touched my heart, told me things my mind did not yet understand, and I was then in a position to proceed confidently with my work until my head caught up with my heart.... I have come to know that although ours in a thoughtful faith, one that requires reason as well as revelation, it is often necessary to place our unanswered questions on a shelf, to suspend intellectual judgment while findings from study manage to catch up with the feelings and impressions obtained from the Spirit of God."

Hi Katzpur

I hear what you're saying, but the evidential and logical case against a loving God who causes/permits evil cannot be dismissed or explained away, and suspending intellectual judgement means the contradiction stands unassailed.

The concept of an all loving, benevolent, merciful and forgiving God cannot be reconciled with the evil that exists in the world.

Cottage
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Hi Katzpur

I hear what you're saying, but the evidential and logical case against a loving God who causes/permits evil cannot be dismissed or explained away, and suspending intellectual judgement means the contradiction stands unassailed.

The concept of an all loving, benevolent, merciful and forgiving God cannot be reconciled with the evil that exists in the world.

Cottage
I believe it can, but all of my previous efforts to explain why have been dismissed. I'll give it one more shot, since you and I have never talked about it before. Then, if you are unable to see my perspective as having at least the potential to be correct, I'll just leave you to discuss the matter with other people.

God created a world in which there would be both good and evil. He did so because we could not possibly learn to appreciate the good without having something with which to compare it. Had we never experienced illness, we would not appreciate (or even recognize) good health. Had we never been faced with a challenge, we would have no concept of the feeling that comes with meeting that challenge head on and overcoming it. "Bad things" give us an opportunity to become what we could not possibly become without them. Furthermore, God has given each of us the right to choose for ourselves. Some of us are going to make more equitable choices than others, but if God were to prevent people from making choices that hurt other people, He'd pretty much have to take our agency away from all of us.
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
I believe it can, but all of my previous efforts to explain why have been dismissed. I'll give it one more shot, since you and I have never talked about it before. Then, if you are unable to see my perspective as having at least the potential to be correct, I'll just leave you to discuss the matter with other people.

God created a world in which there would be both good and evil. He did so because we could not possibly learn to appreciate the good without having something with which to compare it. Had we never experienced illness, we would not appreciate (or even recognize) good health. Had we never been faced with a challenge, we would have no concept of the feeling that comes with meeting that challenge head on and overcoming it. "Bad things" give us an opportunity to become what we could not possibly become without them. Furthermore, God has given each of us the right to choose for ourselves. Some of us are going to make more equitable choices than others, but if God were to prevent people from making choices that hurt other people, He'd pretty much have to take our agency away from all of us.

The existence of evil doesn't make God impossible. But by your own admission God is not all loving; he is sometimes loving, sometimes not.

The free will defence doesn't justify or explain the existence of suffering in the presence of a loving God. It only serves to re-state the Problem of Evil. And, actually, it implies that the provision of choice is of a greater moral worth than the alleviation or prevention of suffering. Once again, this position can never be reconciled with an All Loving God.

I have to say, I think it is an appalling argument to say God had to cause or allow evil so that his creation could appreciate what is good! But in one sense I must agree with you: God (or anybody) can only be 'good' if its correlative (evil) exists. But if God needs the contingent world in order to demonstrate goodness, then this is a direct contradiction, since God is supposed to be an All Sufficent Being!

Cottage

 

SKC007

New Member
There is enough torture in this world for some to claim that we're already living in hell! Why does this "God of Love" sit from afar and allow all this misery to happen and if he did indeed create it what sort of "Loving God" is that?! I prefer the Buddhist mythology of hell...It's 'self created', not punishment by some deity, and at least you have chance to get out of it and not burn forever!
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
I believe it can, but all of my previous efforts to explain why have been dismissed. I'll give it one more shot, since you and I have never talked about it before. Then, if you are unable to see my perspective as having at least the potential to be correct, I'll just leave you to discuss the matter with other people.

God created a world in which there would be both good and evil. He did so because we could not possibly learn to appreciate the good without having something with which to compare it. Had we never experienced illness, we would not appreciate (or even recognize) good health. Had we never been faced with a challenge, we would have no concept of the feeling that comes with meeting that challenge head on and overcoming it. "Bad things" give us an opportunity to become what we could not possibly become without them. Furthermore, God has given each of us the right to choose for ourselves. Some of us are going to make more equitable choices than others, but if God were to prevent people from making choices that hurt other people, He'd pretty much have to take our agency away from all of us.

But did the world have to be quite so bad? I could think of multiple ways that a world could have been set up so that people could choose to be good or bad, to experience and understand both, that would be more equitable, far more educational, and contain much less suffering.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
But did the world have to be quite so bad? I could think of multiple ways that a world could have been set up so that people could choose to be good or bad, to experience and understand both, that would be more equitable, far more educational, and contain much less suffering.
Wow! A six-year-old thread!

When you ask if the world had to be quite so bad, I really don't know how to answer you. Are you thinking in terms of natural disasters, disease or man's inhumanity to man? Or maybe all of the above? Where would you personally draw the line if you were God?
 
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