No great spiritual teacher in history would condone Capitalism

[Terrywoodenpic]

sorry i do not understand your reply can you clear it for me please. thank you.

Jesus teachings are not easy for his followers.
He never promised that they could be.
We do have choices... we can be the wheat or the Chaff.
He made many references to the future problems for "Rich Men"
They were not divided into nice rich men and nasty ones.

 

[Gunfingers]

This one?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why do people like Capitalism so much, especially American Christians? Do you honestly believe Jesus would have supported Capitalism? Have you read what the Bible says against usury, and what it says about giving up everything, and what Acts says the early church was like? That was a purely Socialist system!

I think that Christianity runs into problems anytime an attempt is made to build a whole society on it.

The religion of the early Christians described in the Bible is an extreme, fringe religion. IMO, it wasn't meant to be the basis of society; it's meant to exist on the margins of society. It assumes the existence of a society governed by an "other": an "Earthly" kingdom... "Caesar".

It's possible to make a go of things when you renounce your posessions and live on the kindness of others if those around you aren't doing the same. It doesn't work when everyone renounces their posessions and tries to rely on the kindness of others... others who have also renounced their posessions as well.

When you make Christianity the religion of a whole society, compromises have to be made.

How can anyone who claims to be true follower of any religion or spiritual teacher condone Capitalism? It's a system built on greed and usury. It discourages charity and looking out for the poor, by teaching to look out for yourself first.

Kinda.

I think I've come to the realization that while capitalism doesn't encourage charity itself (and maybe even discourage it), at the same time, it provides the economic engine that creates the surplus that makes charity possible. It's just that capitalism doesn't encourage the charity itself, so it has to be harnessed and kept in check somehow.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

Well let history speak for itself, in our country it certainly has, and in every country that's utilized it. The corporations end up on top and the poor end up with the scraps, dreams of reaching the top so they too can have an over-materialistic existence, because after all that's the greatest goal Capitalism offers, that having a nice house, car, etc. is what it means to be successful.

Shallow is what it is

You are completely ignoring the fact that the big, bad, evil capitalist US is also the single largest contributor of charity/donations in the world. When another country experiences a devastating natural disaster, who's the first one on the scene poring out millions and millions of dollars in aid to help that country.

Bill Gates, one of the richest people the world has ever seen, through his foundation has a charitable endowment of 33 billion dollars. Warren Buffet is also a trustee. Gates has also pledged his entire fortune to charity when he dies. This doesnt sound greedy.

Warren Buffet still lives in his 3 or 4 bedroom house he bought 40 years ago. So much for having to have all the nicest houses and cars.


I can sit here for the next hour and list off all of the richest people in the US that donate large portions of their fortune to charity, but I would hope you have already grasped my point. While there are greedy people in this Capitalist economy, it by no means that every person with wealth and power abuses it.

I also have a bone to pick with your statement about the "War Loving" US. Explain to me how you see the US as War Loving? Name one war in the last 150 years that the US was a major player in, that we went into for the sole purpose of flexing our muscle.

World War 2 - we weren't even a part of until Pearl Harbor.
Vietnam - (as controversial as it is) was in opposition to the spread of Communism. (which in my opinion is in everyones best interest)
Korean War - See Above
First Gulf war - Invasion of Kuwait
Iraqi Freedom - This one is obviously quite debatable, and in my opinion was a major executive mistake. I dont think anyone can argue that Saddam needed to be dealt with, however, the way we went about it was not proper. And this is coming from a member of the US Armed Forces.
Afghanistan - Direct result of September 11th. This one is a bit more complicated than just that one fact, but I will leave it at that for now.

Regardless of how you may feel, and how foreign media portrays it, the US isn't some barbarian nation hell bent on world domination.

I think this post has strayed just a little bit from the main point, but I have a tendency to get off on a tangent. However, I think you can still see what I'm trying to get at.

 

[TJ73]

I have to disagree about the evils of capitalism.
First it does give people like myself a chance to control their own life and money in a way I see fit. I can do much greater good running my own business than I ever would have working for someone else.

There are plenty of people that are not satisfied with their station in life and watch crazy get rich infomerrcials all night. They were not going to be satisfied anyway.

Greedy people are greedy people no matter what society they live in.

The spiritual leaders tried to teach people to learn to be satisfied with what they have. There is great wisdom in that and working harder and benefiting in any way from that, spiritually or financially is wonderful.

Histroy has shown time and time again when the govenrment hs control over business it does not perform well. And of course it wouldn't there is greed in socialism too, except you don't get the chance to have the big payout from it. When someone is paid, regardless of performance,what's the motivation.

I am so glad I am not in a socialist society. I know there are some benefits, but I love having the ability to choose when, to whom and how much I can give. It feels much better than had I been forced.

 

[Gloone]

Does anyone ever think about this, despite the fact that they may like Capitalism? None of the great spiritual masters of history would ever have condoned Capitalism. I'm not even sure they would have called it ethical.

Why do people like Capitalism so much, especially American Christians? Do you honestly believe Jesus would have supported Capitalism? Have you read what the Bible says against usury, and what it says about giving up everything, and what Acts says the early church was like? That was a purely Socialist system!

If you are not in favor of capitalism and a free-market I take it you would rather bring slavery back and have Doctors be part of unions and make the same amount of pay as someone that cleans toilets.

How can anyone who claims to be true follower of any religion or spiritual teacher condone Capitalism? It's a system built on greed and usury. It discourages charity and looking out for the poor, by teaching to look out for yourself first.

No it doesn't. It just allows people to do whatever they want with their money. Which they should be able to do. Do you think you are really any better telling people what they should and shouldn't do with the money they work for? If they don't want to waste it on charities then they don't have to. Only the charitable do that type of thing and if someone is not a charitable person why should you force them to be. It kind of defeats the purpose of what charity is all about.

 

[Sunstone]

...Doctors be part of unions and make the same amount of pay as someone that cleans toilets.

OK. I'll bite. Please amuse me: How does being a member of an union work out to receiving the same pay as someone who cleans toilets?

 

[RitalinO.D.]

OK. I'll bite. Please amuse me: How does being a member of an union work out to receiving the same pay as someone who cleans toilets?

Was kind of wondering the same thing, but I just assumed I was misunderstanding what he was trying to say

 

[Debunker]

Capitalism is the same sort of fantasy as doing the lottery.

Every one is taught to believe that any one can make it and become rich.
There are thousands of rich Capitalists to prove it, and like lottery winners most started with very little.

It is quite true that any one might become rich, but even then it is mostly down to luck. Of the millions that study and work hard only very few make to near the top.

The more the ones at the bottom try and work hard to succeed, the richer those at the top become.
It is inherently unfair.

The difficulty is finding what to put in its place.

That might be true of your country but in the USA the only truth is that capitalism created the richest middle class in the whole world. We are not going to give up capitalism for any philosophy that has never worked as well as capitalism. Git a philosophy that looks at reality and not illusions of grandeur that do not exist.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I also have a bone to pick with your statement about the "War Loving" US. Explain to me how you see the US as War Loving? Name one war in the last 150 years that the US was a major player in, that we went into for the sole purpose of flexing our muscle.

World War 2 - we weren't even a part of until Pearl Harbor.
Vietnam - (as controversial as it is) was in opposition to the spread of Communism. (which in my opinion is in everyones best interest)
Korean War - See Above
First Gulf war - Invasion of Kuwait
Iraqi Freedom - This one is obviously quite debatable, and in my opinion was a major executive mistake. I dont think anyone can argue that Saddam needed to be dealt with, however, the way we went about it was not proper. And this is coming from a member of the US Armed Forces.

I think that one's a good example, actually.

Afghanistan - Direct result of September 11th. This one is a bit more complicated than just that one fact, but I will leave it at that for now.

Regardless of how you may feel, and how foreign media portrays it, the US isn't some barbarian nation hell bent on world domination.

Traditionally, it was just North American domination the US was after: Manifest Destiny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Other examples from the last 150 years (which is just short enough a time period that it leaves out the Mexican-American War, which would've been another good example) that the US engaged in to "flex its muscles":

- the Indian Wars
- the Spanish-American War
- the Philippine-American War
- the Banana Wars

 

[Debunker]

Does anyone ever think about this, despite the fact that they may like Capitalism? None of the great spiritual masters of history would ever have condoned Capitalism. I'm not even sure they would have called it ethical.

Why do people like Capitalism so much, especially American Christians? Do you honestly believe Jesus would have supported Capitalism? Have you read what the Bible says against usury, and what it says about giving up everything, and what Acts says the early church was like? That was a purely Socialist system!

How can anyone who claims to be true follower of any religion or spiritual teacher condone Capitalism? It's a system built on greed and usury. It discourages charity and looking out for the poor, by teaching to look out for yourself first.

This is not a well thought out thread. All the great masters of the world are dead but the masters of capitalism are here and alive and prosperous. Why would we want to listen to all the failures in economic policy while we have American capitalism to shine the light to wealth?

You do not know how to read the Bible. I doubt you have read the Bible except for the one or two verses you cite here. The simple fact is that socialism was not even conceived of in Bible days. It was all about rendering unto Caesar the things of Cesar and unto God the things of God. Socialism is the curse of the modern generation that attempts to replace Christianity.

If you think religious people are going to trust your philosophy of socialism to look out for our well being, you best get a grip on reality. Socialism has been responsible for more unjustified deaths and suffering than any philosophy to date in history. Why do you think Americans are such fools. Your ideas have zero chance of bring accepted in the USA>

 

[Debunker]

People not really familiar with economics tend to confuse modern american corporatism with capitalism. They then go on to make up weird facts about it to back up their hatred. Y'know, the whole "have to have the best house and car" thing. I'd love to see the statistics backing that up.

Just drive through the USA and you will see with your own eyes the facts, which are real and nothing like the illusions other counties preach. The wealth is here. Where are the results of your philosophical endeavors?economic philosphy is only good, if it works.

 

[Debunker]

Perhaps, but in much the same way that socialism enabled the soviet union.

and where is the USSR now? Look at all the evil it brought to the world and that is your best example of socialism?

 

[RitalinO.D.]

Why do you think Americans are such fools. Your ideas have zero chance of bring accepted in the USA>

 

[Gloone]

OK. I'll bite. Please amuse me: How does being a member of an union work out to receiving the same pay as someone who cleans toilets?

I am not here for your amusement, at least not today. If someone wants to do away with a free-markets, you might as well do away with education, college, experience, and skill sets. Limit everyone's pay so the rest goes to charity and by then I am not sure what the purpose of charity would serve. You realize this topic is about forcing people to give all their money away because the OP is against Capitalism and free markets / work and claims it to be a evil or a sin, because he seems to have a terrible interpretation of the bible like most people do and I am not here to preach. I don't think he has any idea what he is talking about to be honest and I don't think you do either. So why are you against Capitalism? Would you rather have forced unions and slavery where everyone is told what to do?

 

[Sunstone]

I am not here for your amusement, at least not today. If someone wants to do away with a free-markets, you might as well do away with education, college, experience, and skill sets. Limit everyone's pay so the rest goes to charity and by then I am not sure what the purpose of charity would serve. You realize this topic is about forcing people to give all their money away because the OP is against Capitalism and free markets / work and claims it to be a evil or a sin, because he seems to have a terrible interpretation of the bible like most people do and I am not here to preach. I don't think he has any idea what he is talking about to be honest and I don't think you do either. So why are you against Capitalism? Would you rather have forced unions and slavery where everyone is told what to do?

Did you get the notion that I was against Capitalism from some twit? You shouldn't listen to such people: They don't have enough brains not to go around assuming things they can't prove.

I guess you amuse me after all.

 

[Penumbra]

Matthew 25:14-30 NIV from BibleGateway: Parable of the Talents
14 “Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his wealth to them. 15 To one he gave five bags of gold, to another two bags, and to another one bag,[a] each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16 The man who had received five bags of gold went at once and put his money to work and gained five bags more. 17 So also, the one with two bags of gold gained two more. 18 But the man who had received one bag went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money. 19 “After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20 The man who had received five bags of gold brought the other five. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with five bags of gold. See, I have gained five more.’
21 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’
22 “The man with two bags of gold also came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with two bags of gold; see, I have gained two more.’
23 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’
24 “Then the man who had received one bag of gold came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 So I was afraid and went out and hid your gold in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’
26 “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27 Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.
28 “‘So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags. 29 For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

I think Jesus would have made a good CEO.

 

[Penumbra]

Does anyone ever think about this, despite the fact that they may like Capitalism? None of the great spiritual masters of history would ever have condoned Capitalism. I'm not even sure they would have called it ethical.

Why do people like Capitalism so much, especially American Christians? Do you honestly believe Jesus would have supported Capitalism? Have you read what the Bible says against usury, and what it says about giving up everything, and what Acts says the early church was like? That was a purely Socialist system!

How can anyone who claims to be true follower of any religion or spiritual teacher condone Capitalism? It's a system built on greed and usury. It discourages charity and looking out for the poor, by teaching to look out for yourself first.

This is a rather misguided view of capitalism. Capitalism is simply the private ownership of production in a free market. And in any legitimate society, it comes with regulation in varying degrees. Societies that have disallowed a free market have generally failed.

Capitalism does not "discourage charity and looking out for the poor". It has no opinion on the matter. Charity is outside of the scope of the definition of capitalism. Whether people choose to give to charity or not has little to do with capitalism.

Warren Buffet still lives in his 3 or 4 bedroom house he bought 40 years ago. So much for having to have all the nicest houses and cars.

Buffett still lives in his original house, but he does have a mult-million dollar beachfront vacation home and drives a Cadillac. He also travels mainly by means of a private corporate jet he calls "The Indefensible".

For a man worth tens of billions of dollars, he lives extremely modestly but it's not like he is uncomfortable.