no hell

[Samantha Rinne]

Well, you're the minority in thinking that.

The people who think otherwise are not real Christians. They are people whose Christianity comes from paintings, having not wanted to read a 1200 to sometimes as many as 3000 page work.

The Bible uses Sheol, which is not the same thing.
The Bible uses Hades, which is not the same thing.
The Bible uses outer darkness, which is not the same thing.

Sheol refers to the land of death in general. Abraham and many of the early leaders went to Sheol.
Hades refers to a rather Greek conception of Afterlife. Otherwise, it is synonymous with Sheol. Sheol is simply afterlife. It is not two separate places, but one place. This is consistent with what Spirit Science teaches in its Astral Projection video. It's a monistic Afterlife.

The outer darkness refers to becoming distant from the presence of Jesus. But it is a conditional thing, not a permanent thing. Jesus uses the analogy of being invited to a wedding. Are there no days after the wedding? No other chances ever to see the bride and groom again? The reason you are in the outer darkness is because you put yourself there.

A loving God would not sentence you away from his presence for eternity. Not for a lake of fire, not in an empty darkness, nothing. It's only when you try to be alone that you think you are cut off. In fact, Romans 8:35-39 makes it clear that Hell is not only unbiblical but impossible.

Bad times in Sheol only happen because we do not understand that Christ can be there for us at any time or trouble. This changes the moment we see Jesus again, just as having a boring day at work is no longer the case once you are able to hang out with your girlfriend.

 

[Katzpur]

there is no hell in christianity. evil people, after their judgement, they are annihilated, they are not tortured. they simply cease to exist. if we want to gain eternal life we must try for the good. the idea that god is a sadistic ruler that sends people to torment hell should stop.

You know, I agree with you that the teaching that God is "a sadistic ruler that sends people to torment [in] hell" should stop. Personally, though, I find the notion that He would annihilate them to be just as abhorrent. So, I don't think that idea should be taught either. On second thought, though, I guess everybody has the right to teach what they genuinely believe. It's just up to us to choose wisely what voice we're going to follow.

 

[Katzpur]

Because it's an integral part of the Christian doctrine.

It may be an integral part of Christian doctrine today, but I don't believe it was an integral part of the doctrine Jesus Christ himself taught.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

You know, I agree with you that God is "a sadistic ruler that sends people to torment [in] hell" should stop. Personally, though, I find the notion that He would annihilate them to be just as abhorrent. So, I don't think that idea should be taught either. On second thought, though, I guess everybody has the right to teach what they genuinely believe. It's just up to us to choose wisely what voice we're going to follow.

What if, by "annihilating" we meant "destroying their sense of self and their body and sending a blank soul back into the world"? Does this sound familiar? It should. This is rebirth, discussed in Buddhism. There is nothing left, as though the soul was destroyed in a lake of fire, and yet someone like us lives again.

It may be an integral part of Christian doctrine today, but I don't believe it was an integral part of the doctrine Jesus Christ himself taught.

You'd be right. People take the story of the rich man and Lazarus wrong.

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Yet Paul and the other writers of the letters do not teach a theology of Hell. The lake of fire is mentioned in Revelation, but again, this could refer to a sort of snuffing of the current self. The idea of a loving God is in direct contradiction to basically anything about some kind of eternal punishment.

In no place does it say that the rich man will be punished forever. He is being punished. Why is he being punished? So that people understand the importance of helping other people get to a better state. This is why he wanted to send Lazarus to tell his brothers, to save them from screwing their lives up also.
Your afterlife is subjective, it reflects your karma and emotional state. But it is subject to change. This is why the rich man was able to see Lazarus, they were in the same space, but there was a gulf. Just as there was a gulf of wealth between him and Lazarus (though strangely, he knew Lazarus's name) in life.

There is also a backhanded comment

Yes, this is (wrongly) used as support for Heaven and Hell as two different places. But it's more like being in the same house on a different floor.

I'd strongly recommend people believing in a hard view of Hell watch season 5 or so of Once Upon A Time, beginning about episode 11. It's not really as cut-and-dry as people think.

 

[SalixIncendium]

You know, I agree with you that the teaching that God is "a sadistic ruler that sends people to torment [in] hell" should stop.

Assuming you believe in Hell, who, in your opinion, makes the determination whether one goes to Heaven or Hell?

 

[Katzpur]

What if, by "annihilating" we meant "destroying their sense of self and their body and sending a blank soul back into the world"? Does this sound familiar? It should. This is rebirth, discussed in Buddhism. There is nothing left, as though the soul was destroyed in a lake of fire, and yet someone like us lives again.

I guess I'm not following you. If the soul is destroyed, how can "someone like us" live again? Maybe it's that we're using the word "soul" differently. I suspect that if we were each to try to define the word, that would be the case.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Maybe God sees the big picture and how each person's life is interconnected. If God gave the serial killer a heart attack what would ALL the ramifications be? Only God knows. You may immediately think, well, it would save the rest of those innocent children, which may be correct as far as your finite view is concerned. But maybe God sees and knows more. I know of a family in which the husband was a pedophile abusing children secretly for over 30 years. Maybe God should have had him die years ago. Instead he is in prison. His own son and wife turned him in to authorities as soon as victims finally started speaking out to them. This wife and son, along with several other of this man's children have all suffered shame and heartache at what their husband/father has done, yet they are now helping so many others and exposing the tactics of pedophiles so that others have a greater awareness. Had God killed this man earlier, his own children would not have been born and the supportive help and education they are providing would not exist. Only God sees all the details and has the ability to know the best way to work through each situation. Maybe in some cases He does end a life and in others for various reasons He doesn't.

Doesn't this argument apply to anyone? Your argument for why it was good for God to let a pedophile abuse children for 30 years would work just as well for why it was good that the police didn't arrest him over that time.

If God knows best, shouldn't we take our cues from God? If a police officer is on the trail of a serial killer, should he say to himself, "if God hasn't stopped him yet, then maybe the murders are part of God's plan. How am I to know what good might come from whatever murders he's going to commit next? I should let go and let God. If anything truly contrary to God's plan were to happen, God would stop it"?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

is the new testament pro slavery?

Yes, the New Testament is pro-slavery.

 

[Katzpur]

Assuming you believe in Hell, who, in your opinion, makes the determination whether one goes to Heaven or Hell?

Well, I should probably start by pointing out that I am a Mormon, so my answer is going to be in line with Mormon teachings. We believe that when a person's life-giving spirit leaves his body, the body dies but the spirit continues to exist. It does not immediately go to either Heaven or Hell, but to a kind of intermediate realm where it will reside as a cognizant entity until the final judgment, when it will return to the body it left at death, except that this body will be made perfect and immortal. Meanwhile, the spirits of the dead will be in a state of either rest or torment. These states are known in the Bible as Paradise and the Spirit Prison or Hell. We don't see this Hell as a lake of fire where the torment is physical. Rather, we believe that the unrepentant wicked will experience emotional and spiritual torment for the way they led their lives. That is what we see as Hell. But we see it only as a temporary state for the vast, vast majority of people who have ever lived, as we believe even the spirits in Hell may and will repent and accept Christ as their Savior and be granted entrance to Heaven at the final judgment.

 

[InChrist]

Wow... okay... so you're saying that God wanted all 20 of those innocent children to die violent gruesome deaths. And that killing those 20 children is essential for reasons that are beyond our ability to comprehend. Sorry, but that would be like trying to claim that Hitler was doing the right thing by slaughtering millions of innocence, but the reasoning behind it is just too complex for us to understand. Sounds like a pathetic cop out to me

As for your pedophile father example... I'm a bit confused. You say that somehow it was a GOOD thing that he abused his children for years, because it enabled them to start speaking out against other immoral pedophiles. And that if God had given the sleazeball father a heat attack that they never would have made the effort to try and protect all of the other innocent children being abused by their parents. However, if God would intervene and give heat attacks to all of the disgusting pedophiles in the world, these poor kids wouldn't need to speak out because there wouldn't be any other children being abused in such a manner.

If millions of children being abuse is all part of God's Plan, then I have to wonder if God's plan is worth following.

I'm not saying at all that God wanted those children ( or the Holocaust Jews or anyone) to be harmed, that it was His plan, or a good thing in anyway whatsoever. What I believe is included in God's plan is that each person is given freedom of choice and sadly this too often involves self-centered, evil choices which harm others. Nevertheless, God sees the big picture and works through all human choices and actions, whether good or evil, for the perfect eternal outcome. Every person will be held accountable.

 

[InChrist]

Doesn't this argument apply to anyone? Your argument for why it was good for God to let a pedophile abuse children for 30 years would work just as well for why it was good that the police didn't arrest him over that time.

If God knows best, shouldn't we take our cues from God? If a police officer is on the trail of a serial killer, should he say to himself, "if God hasn't stopped him yet, then maybe the murders are part of God's plan. How am I to know what good might come from whatever murders he's going to commit next? I should let go and let God. If anything truly contrary to God's plan were to happen, God would stop it"?

No, it doesn't work that way, simply because humans are not God. Humans and/or police officers must follow laws, do their jobs and choose to do what is right with the information they have.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Well, I should probably start by pointing out that I am a Mormon, so my answer is going to be in line with Mormon teachings. We believe that when a person's life-giving spirit leaves his body, the body dies but the spirit continues to exist. It does not immediately go to either Heaven or Hell, but to a kind of intermediate realm where it will reside as a cognizant entity until the final judgment, when it will return to the body it left at death, except that this body will be made perfect and immortal. Meanwhile, the spirits of the dead will be in a state of either rest or torment. These states are known in the Bible as Paradise and the Spirit Prison or Hell. We don't see this Hell as a lake of fire where the torment is physical. Rather, we believe that the unrepentant wicked will experience emotional and spiritual torment for the way they led their lives. That is what we see as Hell. But we see it only as a temporary state for the vast, vast majority of people who have ever lived, as we believe even the spirits in Hell may and will repent and accept Christ as their Savior and be granted entrance to Heaven at the final judgment.

Thanks for taking the time to explain your beliefs. But you really didn't answer my question...

Assuming you believe in Hell, who, in your opinion, makes the determination whether one goes to Heaven or Hell?

 

[Katzpur]

Thanks for taking the time to explain your beliefs. But you really didn't answer my question...

Sorry about that. I'd say God does, but with one caveat. I believe He genuinely wants all of us back in His presence, and will give us every conceivable opportunity (for many, this will be after death as they await the resurrection) to accept the sacrifice Jesus Christ made on their behalf. Ultimately, almost all will, some more grudgingly than others, though. The only ones who will end up eternally separated from God are the ones who, in the end, essentially stand before Him and say, "I know who you are and I want nothing to do with you. I would rather spend eternity far away from you than in your presence." They'll get their wish, as God won't force anyone into complying with His desires.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I'm not saying at all that God wanted those children ( or the Holocaust Jews or anyone) to be harmed, that it was His plan, or a good thing in anyway whatsoever. What I believe is included in God's plan is that each person is given freedom of choice and sadly this too often involves self-centered, evil choices which harm others. Nevertheless, God sees the big picture and works through all human choices and actions, whether good or evil, for the perfect eternal outcome. Every person will be held accountable.

I'm sorry, but if God COULD give a serial child killer a heart attack before they kill an additional 18 kids and chooses not to, then clearly God DOES want those additional children to die. You claim that He wants them to die because of some 'big picture'. If God's big picture requires the death of those children and God wants the big picture to come to pass then clearly God DOES want those children dead. And if that's the case then God also WANTS the serial killer to behave in the cruel and immoral manner in which he does. After all, if the killer suddenly changed heart after killing only 2 of the 20 children and God's big picture REQUIRES that all 20 children die in such a horrible manner, then by ignoring his desire to kill those additional children he would somehow thwart God's plan for the big picture.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

there is no hell in christianity. evil people, after their judgement, they are annihilated, they are not tortured. they simply cease to exist. if we want to gain eternal life we must try for the good. the idea that god is a sadistic ruler that sends people to torment hell should stop.

Hell just means eternal seperation from god. The details depend on denomination and who you speak to. They all have one thing in common: you will no longer be in god's presence. Roman Catholics have purgatory, but the concepts the same based on the type of sin if youre already been baptized.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Sorry about that. I'd say God does, but with one caveat. I believe He genuinely wants all of us back in His presence, and will give us every conceivable opportunity (for many, this will be after death as they await the resurrection) to accept the sacrifice Jesus Christ made on their behalf. Ultimately, almost all will, some more grudgingly than others, though. The only ones who will end up eternally separated from God are the ones who, in the end, essentially stand before Him and say, "I know who you are and I want nothing to do with you. I would rather spend eternity far away from you than in your presence." They'll get their wish, as God won't force anyone into complying with His desires.

Can we rephrase it as:

Hey god. I know you offered me perfect health, be with family, and a 401K plan, but I rather live with this one leg, with a hole in my heart given my infant died, and live off five dollars a week because I love others more when I understand suffering and be comfortable with death than I do trying to live as if life were secured when in my experience that Isnt the truth.

Living life from the perspective of the certainty of death than hope and have faith in the uncertainity of life.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

it's the wickedness that is destroyed not the soul. in my opinion.

Most say the soul is distroyed because of wickness. He says the wickness is from the soul. Since hell is eternal seperation from god, its your soul thats seperated.

As for the wickness, its generally seen thats why you are tempted to sin either because your first parents did and/or you developed inherited sin and cant help but to sin.

He holds you accountable for not taking the medication even when you found a cure he couldnt give you. Then say you have free will to choose his cure and since you refused, he is jeleous and gets mad so he gives an ultitimatum or blames you for not chosing his cure.

Ive been on RF too long. We can make a whole book talking for god. (Good title: Talking for god)

 

[Katzpur]

Can we rephrase it as:

Hey god. I know you offered me perfect health, be with family, and a 401K plan, but I rather live with this one leg, with a hole in my heart given my infant died, and live off five dollars a week because I love others more when I understand suffering and be comfortable with death than I do trying to live as if life were secured when in my experience that Isnt the truth.

Living life from the perspective of the certainty of death than hope and have faith in the uncertainity of life.

Uhhh. I'm not sure I follow you. Truly, only life is certain. Nothing following death is. But for those of us who believe in a life after this one, and realize that this life is just a tiny speck when compared with eternity, try to make the best of the present while not giving up on the idea of a much better future.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, it doesn't work that way, simply because humans are not God. Humans and/or police officers must follow laws, do their jobs and choose to do what is right with the information they have.

But part of "the information they have" is that God didn't see fit to stop the rapist/murderer/thief/whatnot. Apparently, it aligns with God's plan. Who are we to second-guess God, right?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Uhhh. I'm not sure I follow you. Truly, only life is certain. Nothing following death is. But for those of us who believe in a life after this one, and realize that this life is just a tiny speck when compared with eternity, try to make the best of the present while not giving up on the idea of a much better future.

It was a poor attempt of seeing it differently.

I see only death as certain; life is not. We see people live one day and though healthy die the next. I almost got hit by two cars by inches but then someone who has no illness nor crossing the wrong street dies the next day. I honestly see it as taking life for granted.

If I said to god, "hey, I know you offer me eternal life, family, and good means of living but I rather live how I am now because through my suffering and Knowledge of death, I live a purposeful life" and say, "I cant see that in what you give...."

Id see that as coming to god and saying I truely found purpose elsewhere, and thats my honest approach.

Why would god see it as a disadvantage for me to go away from him if it were in the best interest of my wellbeing and not just his? (Edit)