No Lions and Tigers were on Noah’s Ark

[Shad]

I guess since you seem to already know all the details of Judaism's view on the ark and the miracle, there's no point in further discussing this with you.

Never said that. I am merely pointing out that if using the argument "space is not an issue" you run into problem as the Ark had specific design parameters which are not need as "space is not an issue" In the end I see it as using magic as an ad hoc rescue to maintain the story as historical. Anyone can claim miracles and magic to rescue any idea they hold. I could claim metaphysical naturalism is true due to metaphysical nature magic allows it.

 

[Skwim]

But besides for that, we have a rule that G-d performs miracles on the smallest possible scale while accomplishing all the goals intended.

An odd rule for an omnipotent being. And where does this rule come from? Moreover, if he performs miracles on the smallest possible scale while accomplishing all the goals intended then why not just *poof* all the sinners out of existence rather than go to the trouble of taking the time to have an ark constructed, assembling the thousands upon thousands of kinds in one place, and then making it rain for forty days and forty nights, and then waiting years for all the water to seep into the earth?

So He had the ark made in specific dimensions because we can derive information from those dimensions, not because they necessarily effect the float-ability of the ark.

Why couldn't we derive information from other dimensions?

He used water to destroy the creation because there is something that we can derive from that specific form of punishment. etc. etc.

What something? A something that is worth the deaths of millions of humans (many quite innocent) and billions of animals (all innocent) and the destruction of the entire ecosystem.

 

[Tumah]

An odd rule for an omnipotent being.

Not so odd. Its not a question of what He could do, but of how He created the world. He created laws of nature because He wants the world to work according to those laws. So He only changes them as much as necessary as needed.

And where does this rule come from?

G-d?

Moreover, if he performs miracles on the smallest possible scale while accomplishing all the goals intended then why not just *poof* all the sinners out of existence

Because suffering fixes the soul. Poofing them out of existence destroys it.

rather than go to the trouble of taking the time to have an ark constructed

The time taken to construct the ark was to provide the people of the generation with additional time to repent. When they saw Noah building the ark, and would question him about it, they should have repented. Noah's held accountable for not trying harder to convince people to repent that way.

assembling the thousands upon thousands of kinds in one place,

The animals also needed fixing because there is an aspect of each animal in mankind and as mankind destroys his soul it affects the creation as well.

and then making it rain for forty days and forty nights

Forty in Judaism is the equivalence it takes to create a new entity.

and then waiting years for all the water to seep into the earth?

I think it was just one year. I'm not sure why it had to be a year, but I'm confident it is spoken about in Jewish literature, so I can find out if its important for you to know.

Why couldn't we derive information from other dimensions?

I'm not sure what you're asking here. The specific lessons that G-d wanted us to learn from the dimensions of the ark needs the dimensions that teach those lessons...

What something? A something that is worth the deaths of millions of humans (many quite innocent) and billions of animals (all innocent) and the destruction of the entire ecosystem.

I'll just ignore the baiting questions.

 

[Tumah]

Never said that. I am merely pointing out that if using the argument "space is not an issue" you run into problem as the Ark had specific design parameters which are not need as "space is not an issue" In the end I see it as using magic as an ad hoc rescue to maintain the story as historical. Anyone can claim miracles and magic to rescue any idea they hold. I could claim metaphysical naturalism is true due to metaphysical nature magic allows it.

No you didn't say it. But if you were interested in doing anything other than stupidly attack me, you would have first tried to ascertain whether I have any answers for those questions rather than assuming I don't and then commenting based on that assumption. But then if you found out I did, it would have been much harder to make fun of me as a Creationist, amirite?

 

[Skwim]

Not so odd. Its not a question of what He could do, but of how He created the world. He created laws of nature because He wants the world to work according to those laws. So He only changes them as much as necessary as needed.
G-d?
Because suffering fixes the soul. Poofing them out of existence destroys it.

Forgive my ignorance, but couldn't god change this by enabling poofing to fix the soul? And where does all this information about his methods, and the fixing nature of suffering come from? Is it written somewhere?

The time taken to construct the ark was to provide the people of the generation with additional time to repent. When they saw Noah building the ark, and would question him about it, they should have repented. Noah's held accountable for not trying harder to convince people to repent that way.

What about all those who where nowhere near the ark to have seen it or hear about it and god's plan for their imminent annihilation? ALSO, there's nothing in the account saying that Noah took the time to convince anyone of anything.

The animals also needed fixing because there is an aspect of each animal in mankind and as mankind destroys his soul it affects the creation as well.

There's "an aspect of each animal in mankind"? What aspect is that? And, who are you referring to when you say "his" soul? If what you say here is true please provide your source of information.

Forty in Judaism is the equivalence it takes to create a new entity.

Wh?????at? Honestly, besides being pretty much irrelevant, this is not making any sense to me at all

I think it was just one year. I'm not sure why it had to be a year, but I'm confident it is spoken about in Jewish literature, so I can find out if its important for you to know.

The exact time is nowhere near as important as an explanation of this laborious process god went through in light of the rule that G-d performs miracles on the smallest possible scale while accomplishing all the goals intended. A quick, reconfigured *poofing* seems a far better alternative all the way around.

I'm not sure what you're asking here. The specific lessons that G-d wanted us to learn from the dimensions of the ark needs the dimensions that teach those lessons...

You said "He had the ark made in specific dimensions because we can derive information from those dimensions," so I'm curious as to just what important information are we to derive from the fact that god had the ark made in specific dimensions?

I'll just ignore the baiting questions.

You made a very strange claim, and I'm just trying to understand it.

"He used water to destroy the creation because there is something that we can derive from that specific form of punishment. etc. etc.
​

Which I take to mean; punishment through destruction by water yields a special something. So just what is this something you're talk about that justifies destruction by the use of water? A something that evidently can't be acquired any other way.

​

 

[ArtieE]

No you didn't say it. But if you were interested in doing anything other than stupidly attack me, you would have first tried to ascertain whether I have any answers for those questions rather than assuming I don't and then commenting based on that assumption. But then if you found out I did, it would have been much harder to make fun of me as a Creationist, amirite?

According to you when did creation and the flood take place?

 

[Tumah]

Forgive my ignorance, but couldn't god change this by enabling poofing to fix the soul?

Theoretically. But that would pretty much ruin the whole point of creating existence the way He did.

And where does all this information about his methods, and the fixing nature of suffering come from? Is it written somewhere?

Yes, Talmudic, Midrashic, etc.

What about all those who where nowhere near the ark to have seen it or hear about it and god's plan for their imminent annihilation?

Word spreads when you got 100 years and not relatively that many people.

ALSO, there's nothing in the account saying that Noah took the time to convince anyone of anything.

That's right. I'm Jewish not Christian. So the the Bible is not my only source of information. I'd probably go so far as to say its not even my main source of information.

There's "an aspect of each animal in mankind"? What aspect is that?

Its spiritual source.

And, who are you referring to when you say "his" soul?

Man.

If what you say here is true please provide your source of information.

Talmud, Midrash, other Rabbinic works.

Wh?????at? Honestly, besides being pretty much irrelevant, this is not making any sense to me at all

Considering your lack of background in Jewish literature/theology, I wouldn't think it would make any more sense that a bunch of random tidbits of Hindu theology/lore would make to me. Don't you think?

The exact time is nowhere near as important as an explanation of this laborious process god went through in light of the rule that G-d performs miracles on the smallest possible scale while accomplishing all the goals intended.

For you maybe. But for us, the details are also important. Every detail of the event is another lesson or falls under a certain principle. Since one of the goals of the Torah is to teach us the details that are provided are provided to teach.

You said "He had the ark made in specific dimensions because we can derive information from those dimensions," so I'm curious as to just what important information are we to derive from the fact that god had the ark made in specific dimensions?

One of the places you can find the answer to this is in the Kli Yakar on Gen. 6:15.

You made a very strange claim, and I'm just trying to understand it.

"He used water to destroy the creation because there is something that we can derive from that specific form of punishment. etc. etc.
​

Which I take to mean; punishment through destruction by water yields a special something. So just what is this something you're talk about that justifies destruction by the use of water?

You can find the answer to this in that same source as above (among other places).

Every answer I give you, you'll question until you find a problem somewhere because you know there is one. And I'm going to keep giving you answers, because we've had all the same questions you did (and a lot more than that too), but like way before critical reading became a thing. So all I need to do, is look in the relevant book (if I haven't seen it already) and voila: answer a la platter. But what am I supposed to do exactly? Every answer here comes with background and context that you don't have but would fill pages to give you. Just from the questions in this post alone I would have to give you background on the Jewish concepts of: suffering, the nature of the soul, the creation of Man, the nature of the world's existence, the nature of the generation of the flood (which would also require understanding events about Adam), fractals, Divine manipulation of the world, the nature of punishment, the nature of rectification, etc.
So if you're looking for a specific answer to a specific question, I can provide that. But if you're just going to waste my time looking for the chink in the mail, learn Hebrew and Aramaic, go out, buy some Jewish literature, study it and come back with your questions. That's what I do. My personal library at home has upwards of 300 works of Jewish literature spanning most areas of Jewish study. Then when I have a question, I have the background to make sense of the answer my Rabbi gives me. So once you have some background in Jewish theology and lore we can discuss your objections.

 

[Tumah]

According to you when did creation and the flood take place?

5,776 years ago and 1,656 years after that.

 

[ArtieE]

5,776 years ago and 1,656 years after that.

Thanks. How many animal "kinds" do you estimate survived the flood and became an estimated 8.7 million species in a few thousand years?

 

[Skwim]

[

Every answer I give you, you'll question until you find a problem somewhere because you know there is one. And I'm going to keep giving you answers, because we've had all the same questions you did (and a lot more than that too), but like way before critical reading became a thing. So all I need to do, is look in the relevant book (if I haven't seen it already) and voila: answer a la platter. But what am I supposed to do exactly? Every answer here comes with background and context that you don't have but would fill pages to give you. Just from the questions in this post alone I would have to give you background on the Jewish concepts of: suffering, the nature of the soul, the creation of Man, the nature of the world's existence, the nature of the generation of the flood (which would also require understanding events about Adam), fractals, Divine manipulation of the world, the nature of punishment, the nature of rectification, etc.
So if you're looking for a specific answer to a specific question, I can provide that. But if you're just going to waste my time looking for the chink in the mail, learn Hebrew and Aramaic, go out, buy some Jewish literature, study it and come back with your questions. That's what I do. My personal library at home has upwards of 300 works of Jewish literature spanning most areas of Jewish study. Then when I have a question, I have the background to make sense of the answer my Rabbi gives me. So once you have some background in Jewish theology and lore we can discuss your objections.

Sorry, but your answers fail to convince. Falling back on essentially: "It's in the Jewish literature" when it isn't called for is pure cop out. And brushing aside my comments and questions with presumptuous C&B tells me you've put your back up against the wall, but can't admit it. I can't to bother with this any more. Have a good day.

Thanks. How many animal "kinds" do you estimate survived the flood and became an estimated 8.7 million species in a few thousand years?

Good question, because we do know that none of the dinosaurs and their "primitive" allies did.

 

[ArtieE]

@Skwim

I'm just interested in what Jewish literature says about how the DNA of the "kinds" changed into millions of species in a few thousand years. Whether it was due to evolution and natural selection or divine intervention.

 

[metis]

I can understand the moral story interpretation. I see it this way as well. I understand you let people express their views. However when one express a view that the story is literal then I believe people are obligated to slap down the interpretation as the nonsense it is.

I think we all have a right to our opinions, but that works both ways. I can't agree with the "slap down" part even though that's my gut reaction at times.

 

[metis]

@Skwim

I'm just interested in what Jewish literature says about how the DNA of the "kinds" changed into millions of species in a few thousand years. Whether it was due to evolution and natural selection or divine intervention.

Most Jews do not see the Flood narrative as being literal historic event. However, the further one goes back in time into "Jewish literature", the more prevalent was the more literalistic types of interpretation.

 

[metis]

This is a side-bar that means little in regards to the topic under discussion, but in our tradition certain numbers keep being repeated because they often have a symbolic value, and 40 is one of them as a number of completion. Others are 3, 7, 12, and 1000, although there's possibly more. A number like 6 implies incomplete, therefore bad or evil. For those of you who are Christian, 666 would be interpreted as very (3) evil (6).

 

[ArtieE]

Most Jews do not see the Flood narrative as being literal historic event. However, the further one goes back in time into "Jewish literature", the more prevalent was the more literalistic types of interpretation.

I was under the impression that Tumah took it literally... was it meant to be taken literally when it was written?

 

[dust1n]

5,776 years ago and 1,656 years after that.

How is it possible to see objects many times more light years away from us, if it was all created 5,776 years ago?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

A​

And creationists say there's no such thing as evolution.

"No lions and tigers were on Noah’s Ark. Instead, God brought one pair of every“kind.”
At least 38 living (shown here) and 36 extinct cats descended from this original pair!"
​

"Cats of the Cataclysm

The cat kind provides a great example of the diversity God placed within the created kinds. Many Ark illustrations show lions, tigers, and other large cats boarding the Ark, but this concept is mistaken. All of these large cats are members of the same created kind, so Noah did not bring two tigers, two lions, etc. In fact, Noah needed a total of only two cats—studies have shown that all cats are part of the same created kind. This would include modern alley cats, the famous saber-toothed cat (Smilodon), and many other large cats, whether living or extinct.

With such a wide assortment of traits within the felid [genus] kind, the task of determining the look of the Ark Encounter’s cats required extensive research. We paid close attention to the fossil evidence of the cats buried in rock layers laid down soon after the Flood, as determined by the Creation/Flood geology model adopted by our research department. These fossils likely give us a better idea of the size and structure of cats living within the first few centuries after the Flood.

Figuring out the size and shape is only part of the challenge. Cats have a wide array of coat patterns and colors, which are seldom preserved. They can have wide or thin stripes, large or small spots, or they can be a solid color or multicolored. One study concluded that small spots may have been the ancestral pattern of all other coat colors and designs."
source: A i G​

Just think, from this single species of cats evolved the following 40 living species in just 4,300 years* no less---and this is being incredibly generous.

Subfamily Pantherinae
Genus Panthera [Lineage 1]
Tiger (Panthera tigris)
Lion (Panthera leo)
Jaguar (Panthera onca)
Leopard (Panthera pardus)
Snow leopard (Panthera uncia; syn., Uncia uncia)[24]

Genus Neofelis [Lineage 1]
Clouded leopard (Neofelis nebulosa)
Sunda clouded leopard (Neofelis diardi)


Subfamily Felinae
Genus Pardofelis [Lineage 2] — since 2006, this genus is defined as also comprising Bay cat and Asian golden cat;[9]
Marbled cat (Pardofelis marmorata)

Genus Catopuma [Lineage 2] — syn. Pardofelis[9]
Bay cat (Catopuma badia) — syn. P. badia[9]
Asian golden cat (Catopuma temminckii) — syn. P. temminckii[9]

Genus Caracal [Lineage 3]
Caracal (C. caracal)
African golden cat (C. aurata) — syn. Profelis aurata;[9][25]
Serval (C. serval)[9]

Genus Leopardus [Lineage 4]
Pantanal cat (Leopardus braccatus)
Colocolo (Leopardus colocolo)
Geoffroy's cat (Leopardus geoffroyi)
Kodkod (Leopardus guigna)
Southern tigrina (Leopardus guttulus)
Andean mountain cat (Leopardus jacobitus)
Pampas cat (Leopardus pajeros)
Ocelot (Leopardus pardalis)
Oncilla (Leopardus tigrinus)
Margay (Leopardus wiedii)

Genus Lynx [Lineage 5]
Canadian lynx (Lynx canadensis)
Eurasian lynx (Lynx lynx)
Iberian lynx (Lynx pardinus)
Bobcat (Lynx rufus)

Genus Puma [Lineage 6]
Cougar (Puma concolor)
Jaguarundi (Puma yagouaroundi)

Genus Acinonyx[1][Lineage 6]
Cheetah (Acinonyx jubatus)

Genus Prionailurus [Lineage 7]
Leopard cat (Prionailurus bengalensis)
Iriomote cat (Prionailurus bengalensis iriomotensis) [aka Prionailurus iriomotensis][1]

Flat-headed cat (Prionailurus planiceps)
Rusty-spotted cat (Prionailurus rubiginosus)
Fishing cat (Prionailurus viverrinus)

Genus Otocolobus [Lineage 7]
Pallas's cat (Otocolobus manul)

Genus Felis [Lineage 8]
Domestic cat (Felis catus)
Jungle cat (Felis chaus)
Sand cat (Felis margarita)
Black-footed cat (Felis nigripes)
Wildcat (Felis silvestris)
Chinese mountain cat (Felis silvestris bieti)
Source: Wikipedia

​

*Flood; 2,304 BC + 2,015 AD

​

FWIW, if we're starting with the assumption that the Noah's Ark story is true, then we're already conceding that magic is real. Once we do that, we lose all grounds to say that anything is implausible.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How is it possible to see objects many times more light years away from us, if it was all created 5,776 years ago?

God is magic. QED.

 

[ArtieE]

How is it possible to see objects many times more light years away from us, if it was all created 5,776 years ago?

A god could have created and arranged all the atoms and photons and everything in the universe and set everything in motion yesterday so that it would look to us as if the universe was billions of years old.

 

[Shad]

I think we all have a right to our opinions, but that works both ways. I can't agree with the "slap down" part even though that's my gut reaction at times.

I disagree since science has evidence which contradicts a global flood narrative. A local flood seems plausible when looking at the Epic, the Sumerian Kings list and the nature of the Tigris and Euphrates