No Magic

[mikkel_the_dane]

In other words, You have your definitions, I'll have the accepted one.

So what kind of fallacy are you using?

 

[Nakosis]

If you think physics describes a mundane reality, I suggest you do a bit of research into Quantum Theory. For now, since you mentioned cause and effect, I’ll leave you with this quote from Carlo Rovelli’s ‘The Order of Time’…

“We often say that causes precede effects and yet, in the elementary grammar of things, there is no distinction between ‘cause’ and ‘effect’. There are regularities, represented by what we call physical laws, that link events of different times, but they are symmetric between future and past. In microscopic description, there can be no sense in which the past is different from the future.”

Nearly two millennia before physicists began questioning our intuitive (mis)understanding of time btw, a Buddhist philosopher monk made this observation;

“A non abiding time cannot be apprehended; an abiding time that can be apprehended does not exist. And how is a non apprehended time conceived?”

- Nagarjuna, The Middle Way

So, mundane reality? Don’t think so.

“There are two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.”

- Albert Einstein

I'm not using mundane in the sense of meaning uninteresting. Just meaning non-magical. Maybe I should have used a less ambiguous term.

While sometimes I'll throw an ambiguous term out there with the intent to troll a bit, not in this case.

 

[Nakosis]

Im happy with reality and no make believe

To be honest, I don't even think about it usually. Reality is what it is and there are plenty of interesting things going on.

 

[Nakosis]

Mundane is boring

So, I was driving down some roads in Port Saint Lucie, Florida last week.

Lots of interesting small shops, Mom & Pop restaurants along the beach. Lot of trees, green brush, wildlife to see. It was all very peaceful, cathartic.
Happy, at peace just being where I was. If that is all I have in life, then really, I'm ok with that.

 

[Nakosis]

Well, let's separate out magic (which is not real) from the perception of people that ther is a divine.

I think that people can be happy thinking there is no God. But they are still missing out. It's like people being happy when they are deaf.

So, spirituality. To me, the purpose of spirituality is bringing the self into harmony. While I don't believe a belief in God is necessary for this, I accept some find such a belief is necessary.

I often ask what a belief in God brings to the table. I don't believe that a satisfactory answer exists, I could be wrong.

 

[Spirit of Light]

So, I was driving down some roads in Port Saint Lucie, Florida last week.

Lots of interesting small shops, Mom & Pop restaurants along the beach. Lot of trees, green brush, wildlife to see. It was all very peaceful, cathartic.
Happy, at peace just being where I was. If that is all I have in life, then really, I'm ok with that.

That is good for you I am in no position to tell you what is good or not good for you

 

[Nakosis]

What if there is more, regardless of whether it brings us happiness or sadness?

I cross that road when I come to it. I'm not saying such doesn't exist, only that I have no knowledge about it to base any decisions on. For me, I can get through life fine without belief in these thing. Knowledge of what come next is knowledge, not belief. What I don't know could hurt me? Maybe, but I can't change the fact of my ignorance.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I'm not using mundane in the sense of meaning uninteresting. Just meaning non-magical. Maybe I should have used a less ambiguous term.

While sometimes I'll throw an ambiguous term out there with the intent to troll a bit, not in this case.

Yeah, I get that. Words like mundane and magical are subject to interpretation.

Still I think we can say, that to some people, nothing is magical, while to others everything is. And they are looking at the exact same phenomena.

The point about physics holds btw. I’ve noticed quite a few people invoke “science” as a supposed antidote to magical thinking - presumably without understanding just how magical quantum theory can get, and still be taken seriously in the scientific community.

 

[Nakosis]

Yeah, I get that. Words like mundane and magical are subject to interpretation.

Still I think we can say, that to some people, nothing is magical, while to others everything is. And they are looking at the exact same phenomena.

The point about physics holds btw. I’ve noticed quite a few people invoke “science” as a supposed antidote to magical thinking - presumably without understanding just how magical quantum theory can get, and still be taken seriously in the scientific community.

I'm aware of some of the spooky stuff with quantum theory. However I lack the real understanding a scientist might have. I don't see it as magical, just a lack of comprehension.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I'm aware of some of the spooky stuff with quantum theory. However I lack the real understanding a scientist might have. I don't see it as magical, just a lack of comprehension.

Well yeah. We are only just beginning to comprehend quite how ****ing weird the Universe is.

 

[Secret Chief]

It's like people being happy when they are deaf.

Unless I'm missing the context, that seems rather offensive.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Unless I'm missing the context, that seems rather offensive.

You are missing the context. Is being deaf a disability? Yes. Can someone be deaf and be happy? Certainly. In the same way, a person is missing out if they do not perceive the divine, but it doesn't mean they can't be happy.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

The word happy can be used in two ways: to describe a state of mind at any given moment or to describe a state of the heart in long term. What I'm talking about is the latter. No doubt atheists can feel happy about things, but can they be truly happy? No.

Your "state of the heart in long term" is meaningless. The heart is an organ that pumps blood. Please describe to me exactly what you mean by "heart" if you want me to take this at all seriously. And then we might be able to discuss whether or not I fit this strange alternative definition of "happy" you are trying to posit here. Alternatively, if I find your definition of "heart" as you used it here insufficient or incoherent, I will likely choose to just ignore your statement as claptrap, and conclude that you actually have very little idea what you are talking about.

It isn't about whether God is or isn't, but whether you believe in Him or not. If I didn't believe in God I would be miserable. Not necessarily immediately miserable - I'd have a thousand sinful ways to entertain myself and to distract myself from my misery and my inevitable death.

I don't believe in God, and I am never what I would describe as "miserable." Never. I feel not quite myself every once in a while... but I am never fully "depressed." I actually find that I have a very, very hard time relating to people when they relate that they are "depressed." I have some vague notion of what it means to be so... but I don't feel that I have experienced it, because what is described to me is so much worse than anything I have felt.

Also, from a personal standpoint, I cannot possibly "sin" because I don't believe there is a God, and so I can't possibly be going against His edicts in my own eyes. And besides that, I would be willing to bet I even conform (on the side of what you would perceive as rectitude) to almost every item you, yourself would consider "sinful." The only exceptions would likely be foolhardy notions like "blasphemy." I rarely even use profanity, and when I do, it is only ever for comedic effect. I don't use drugs, rarely drink alcohol and only for recreational purposes. I don't "sleep around," don't lie, cheat or steal. I don't need those things to "distract myself from my misery" - though you really are admitting that you would need those things in that capacity if you found yourself in my shoes, belief-wise... which I feel is very, very telling. Based on that I would conclude that you are a closet "bad sort." You'd be out there, running amok, causing havok if it weren't for your belief in God. You'd be one of the people I look down on in that case, by the way. One of the drama-driven. Not much turns my stomach more.

Sure, but that's not the kind of happiness I'm referring to as I said above. However, I have the other kind of happiness at all times.

The kind that comes from the organ that pumps your blood around your body from within your chest cavity, right? What a joke.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Because we might, just might be able to make the world a better place in some tiny little way for just one person and that is good enough for me.

That was a rhetorical question.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No Magic, no supernatural stuff.

Does this make reality more or less interesting to you?

No crystals, no good luck charms, no prayer fulfillment. Nothing but physics and repeatable cause and effect. Mundane reality. Is this good enough or do you need more?

Is it possible to be happy without the other stuff?

If you think reality is mundane without magic and the supernatural, then you aren't paying attention.

 

[Nakosis]

If you think reality is mundane without magic and the supernatural, then you aren't paying attention.

Umm.. that's the definition of mundane, 2nd meaning. Apparently one not so many are aware of.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You are missing the context. Is being deaf a disability? Yes. Can someone be deaf and be happy? Certainly. In the same way, a person is missing out if they do not perceive the divine, but it doesn't mean they can't be happy.

It's fine to like your hobby, but calling someone "disabled" for not being into your hobby is a bit of a stretch.

 

[Justanatheist]

No Magic, no supernatural stuff.

Sad isn't it, the world was a much more fun place when I thought I could travel back through time and fly a Spitfire in the battle of Britain. Then I grew up. Being a kid was great.'

Does this make reality more or less interesting to you?

Far less interesting, I would love to have a super power, think of all the things you could get up too!

No crystals, no good luck charms, no prayer fulfillment. Nothing but physics and repeatable cause and effect. Mundane reality. Is this good enough or do you need more?

No that is why I watch scfi movies and things like Lord of the Rings and read books, takes me places where reality can never go, Great fun but I know they are not real and I have to come back to reality.'

Is it possible to be happy without the other stuff?

What truly happy, like I was when I was a kid and a cricket stump could be a sword and a machine gun and I had no bills or aches and pains, probably not, but I could never fool myself back to child like ignorance and believe in magic friends and another world where everything is wonderful and I live with my mum and dad and nan and grandad for ever and ever. I do not think any adult can really believe in such stuff, I think they are lying to themselves and deep down they know it. That is why they are so angry at those who live in reality.' We remind them of what they truly know.'

 

[Nakosis]

It's fine to like your hobby, but calling someone "disabled" for not being into your hobby is a bit of a stretch.

Kind of funny though. Gave me a chuckle. I'm God-disabled.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How about a completely naturalistic God; one that can only operate within the bounds of nature? Is that ruled out?

That's the only sort of God that's logically coherent.

"The bounds of nature" are descriptive, not proscriptive. They're inferred from what actually happens.

If something - e.g. a god - does something, then we would infer from the fact that the thing happened that it's within "the bounds of nature" that it can happen.