No more crackers and sacramental drink for Biden.

[Unveiled Artist]

Then the organization is belittling christ. Or maybe I'm just insensitive.

How so? The Eucharist, Baptism, and Confirmation doesn't void itself because of some of the "individual" higherups that make up the political nature of the church messed up. There are thousands of innocents priests who are not involved with coverups and crimes and genuinely devote themselves to christ and the body of christ.

A lot of people won't even take their child to the priest anymore because they feel all priests are in cahoots just because their political heads of the church-they say-messed up. I feel sorry for the priests, actually.

 

[Friend of Mara]

How so? The Eucharist, Baptism, and Confirmation doesn't void itself because of some of the "individual" higherups that make up the political nature of the church messed up. There are thousands of innocents priests who are not involved with coverups and crimes and genuinely devote themselves to christ and the body of christ.

It does if they are aware and do not speak out.

A lot of people won't even take their child to the priest anymore because they feel all priests are in cahoots just because their political heads of the church-they say-messed up. I feel sorry for the priests, actually.

They are in cahoots. They belong to the same organization. If I was part of some sorority and that sorority had within it the largest pedophile ring in the world and when they found out about it they didn't squash it out but rather systematically cover it up with no intention of stopping it .... I wouldn't be part of that sorority anymore. Or at the very least I would be outspoken for retribution and change within the sorority.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It does if they are aware and do not speak out.

Thousands of priest would have to have a rally to speak out like that.

They are in cahoots. They belong to the same organization. If I was part of some sorority and that sorority had within it the largest pedophile ring in the world and when they found out about it they didn't squash it out but rather systematically cover it up with no intention of stopping it .... I wouldn't be part of that sorority anymore. Or at the very least I would be outspoken for retribution and change within the sorority.

No they're not. That's silly. You know how many priests there are around the world???

Do you know them individually-as people?

Well, if you were a priest before all this started and was devoted to christ, god, and the body of christ (Mass of people) and sacraments.

I'd be sad if I were a priest because I'd know I'd have nothing to do with the rift raff they're talking about and just be devoted to my faith. If people judge me (hypothetically) for serving christ, that's their thing-they don't know me personally.

I can judge people's behaviors but never as a group. That's like judging a a son or daughter because his parents messed up.

 

[Friend of Mara]

Thousands of priest would have to have a rally to speak out like that.

And?

No they're not.

Objectively they are.

That's silly. You know how many priests there are around the world???

Do you know them individually-as people?

Well, if you were a priest before all this started and was devoted to christ, god, and the body of christ (Mass of people) and sacraments.

I'd be sad if I were a priest because I'd know I'd have nothing to do with the rift raff they're talking about and just be devoted to my faith. If people judge me (hypothetically) for serving christ, that's their thing-they don't know me personally.

I can judge people's behaviors but never as a group. That's like judging a a son or daughter because his parents messed up.

If the dad was a serial pedophile rapist and the son/daughter/wife/friend/whoever did all they could to cover it up without trying to stop him I hold them accountable as well.

Just in 2018 a case came out where over 1,000 kids had been abused. How many priests came forward to the law about it? How many priests confessed to each other to lock them out of being brought as witnesses to the stand? Does a priest get excommunicated for speaking out? And if so why?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If the dad was a serial pedophile rapist and the son/daughter/wife/friend/whoever did all they could to cover it up without trying to stop him I hold them accountable as well.

Just in 2018 a case came out where over 1,000 kids had been abused. How many priests came forward to the law about it? How many priests confessed to each other to lock them out of being brought as witnesses to the stand? Does a priest get excommunicated for speaking out? And if so why?

In this case, there are thousands and thousands of priests. That's like saying that I'd cover up a family secret from my great grandmother living thousands of miles away from me with whom that side of the family, I've never met.

Most likely they would sinse Catholic doctrine doesn't teach child molestation and abuse.

I'd hope they'd convict the people that are guilty not the people who work within their thousand department/parish organization worldwide.

If I had a child, I wouldn't mind (if catholic) to bring my child to the priest here where I live but if the handful of priest that molested children were here instead, I wouldn't take my child to them. One-because priests are people and two to judge that person by the actions of "some" of his heads up would be my fault and judgement. I'm not justified just because his religious peers on the other side of the world messed up* .

I just don't feel blaming innocents priests because of their "parents" is justifiable. You'd have to give evidenced ALL the other priests had some play in the cover-up. Just being part of the huge organization isn't enough.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

That is not true.

of course not

is that why, during the dark ages, anyone who disagreed with their sole arbiterness, were labeled as ‘heretics’ , and ended up dying a painful tortured death?

just wondering

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Because organizations should be set up to minimize flaws, not to perpetuate and cover them up.

A person who steals a watch because they want to sell it for money is flawed.

An organization that arranges hundreds of thefts, kills witnesses, silences jurors and bribes police and politicians is actively corrupt.

One causes harm simply out of weakness for personal gain. The other not only causes harm, but actively seeks to further perpetuate harm and protect the perpetrators of it.


No. But millions upon millions of people trust that it is.


That depends. How many organizations do you know saught not only to hide peadophiles within it, but actively saught to protect them and silence their victims?


Better analogy:

You are an apple farmer in a community in which apple pies are the main delicacy and a huge source of income. You examine your bushells and find that, of the one hundred apples you have, only 70 are good. Rather than admit this to the community and risk a slightly less impressive harvest, you tell them all your apples are good. They then take all the apples and make pies out of them. Then some people get sick because they ate your bad apples. You tell these people that it couldn't possibily be due to your apples, because your apples are magic and are never bad. Someone's child dies after eating a pie made from your apples. You warn their parent that they should never tell anyone about this otherwise they might never get your apples again. When health inspectors visit, you pay them to tell everyone all of your apples are safe. You remove all evidence of ever having any bad apples and continue to draw funds from the community by selling them bad apples every season.

Does that sound like the natural result of "less than perfect farming"? Or does it sound like you are actively perpetuating harm for your own ends and setting up a system to remove any accountability on your part?

it sounds like the republican party and the evangelical church to a somewhat large extent
that’s why the marriage of these two evils seems so problematic to me
but that’s another topic

 

[Friend of Mara]

In this case, there are thousands and thousands of priests. That's like saying that I'd cover up a family secret from my great grandmother living thousands of miles away from me with whom that side of the family, I've never met.

Most likely they would sinse Catholic doctrine doesn't teach child molestation and abuse.

I'd hope they'd convict the people that are guilty not the people who work within their thousand department/parish organization worldwide.

If I had a child, I wouldn't mind (if catholic) to bring my child to the priest here where I live but if the handful of priest that molested children were here instead, I wouldn't take my child to them. One-because priests are people and two to judge that person by the actions of "some" of his heads up would be my fault and judgement. I'm not justified just because his religious peers on the other side of the world messed up* .

I just don't feel blaming innocents priests because of their "parents" is justifiable. You'd have to give evidenced ALL the other priests had some play in the cover-up. Just being part of the huge organization isn't enough.

I find it very odd that you have pivoted from I can't criticise the Catholic church without insulting every individual Catholic to how dare I lump every Catholic together.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I find it very odd that you have pivoted from I can't criticise the Catholic church without insulting every individual Catholic to how dare I lump every Catholic together.

No. I didn't say you can't criticize the (political) nature of the church.

I said when you criticize the church, you criticize the individual people that make up that church...even more so, define people's relationship with god based because of what some of their church members have done.

So, for example, if you said a priest in US and a priest in Italy both where in cahoots of covering up child molestation, I'd say that's false. How on earth can one make that conclusion based on one's adherence to catholic doctrine that says Nothing about child molestation.

 

[Friend of Mara]

No. I didn't say you can't criticize the (political) nature of the church.

I said when you criticize the church, you criticize the individual people that make up that church...even more so, define people's relationship with god based because of what some of their church members have done.

The first part is both intentinoal and implied. The second is going to be a matter of perspective of the catholics themselves.

So, for example, if you said a priest in US and a priest in Italy both where in cahoots of covering up child molestation, I'd say that's false. How on earth can one make that conclusion based on one's adherence to catholic doctrine that says Nothing about child molestation.

One could make an argument about how many times removed from the problem they are. However if the pope is involved how far removed can anyone really be?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The first part is both intentinoal and implied. The second is going to be a matter of perspective of the catholics themselves.

I don't believe so with the second. How I'm hearing it it sounds like you want to through thousands of priests in jail cause if it. I'm not sure how pope Francis is handling it or if it was already addressed but I do feel sorry for the guy if he did walk in the middle of all of it.

One could make an argument about how many times removed from the problem they are. However if the pope is involved how far removed can anyone really be?

What can priests and practitioners do to politically and maybe legally address the problem?

Maybe when the priest becomes a bishop he's have some influence.

I think most Catholics focus on Christ and sacraments. I'm quite sure if they found their home priest molested a child they'd send theyr child to another priest not drop the church.

Maybe those handful of priest just need to go to confession, I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if they were excummunicated for it.

Is there a non media influenced document that shows the Catholic coverup?

So far I only read from the media. People follow them as if they were Christ himself.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

What can priests and practitioners do to politically and maybe legally address the problem?

They could leave the church and stop supporting it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

They could leave the church and stop supporting it.

How? They don't see it as a political organization. No one seems to care about the people just the politics of the church. I wonder how pope Francis is handling it. I can see fixing the problem but not leaving the church. Some priests probably have but I'd assume most are dedicated to the people.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

How? They don't see it as a political organization. No one seems to care about the people just the politics of the church. I wonder how pope Francis is handling it. I can see fixing the problem but not leaving the church. Some priests probably have but I'd assume most are dedicated to the people.

You can be dedicated to people while not supporting an organization that is instutionally corrupt and has committed and covered up mass murder and human rights violations.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

They could leave the church and stop supporting it.

How? That's like telling them to leave Christ. I can see not giving money to the church but not leaving their sacraments.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You can be dedicated to people while not supporting an organization that is instutionally corrupt and has committed and covered up mass murder and human rights violations.

You're mixing religion and politics.

What would happen to all parishes around the world who just stop helping people cause of their head. You know how many people would be homeless alone?

One time I was tight on rent and the Baptist church said they oy help those in their own church.

Lock up the guilty priests as a short term tham long term consequences. Big picture

 

[ImmortalFlame]

How? That's like telling them to leave Christ. I can see not giving money to the church but not leaving their sacraments.

And I think thats part of the problem. No matter what the Catholic church does, as long as it lays claim to the only moral authority in minds of millions of people, its followers will bend over backwards to justify or ignore the harm they cause.

What I would says is, maybe thise people need to consider the fact that if the church is capable of the tremendous evil it has committed, maybe it's not the true arbiter of morality it claims to be.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

You're mixing religion and politics.

What is political about not wanting to be a part of an organization that systemically abuses and murders children?

What would happen to all parishes around the world who just stop helping people cause of their head. You know how many people would be homeless alone?

Peole can still support their community without supporting the Catholic church. If the church is willing to withdraw aid for people because its members protest its systemic abses, then clearly they are even more evil and corrupt than I imagined. What kind of organization would withhold charitable aid unless everyone falls in line with protectig paedophiles? If it did that, I would no longer advocate people leaving it. I would advocate its total annihilation.

One time I was tight on rent and the Baptist church said they oy help those in their own church.

Lock up the guilty priests as a short term tham long term consequences. Big picture

The big picture would mean holding the organization accountable for its historic crimes rather than imbuing them with total impugnity. When you look at the big pictute, allowing a massiely influencial, powerful and wealthy organization to get away with systemically raping and murdering children doesn't exactly seem like a good thing for the world.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

And I think thats part of the problem. No matter what the Catholic church does, as long as it lays claim to the only moral authority in minds of millions of people, its followers will bend over backwards to justify or ignore the harm they cause.

When I was in the church I never felt like that. Maybe converts (former or present) have a different perspective. I never felt pushed by the church (my former parish) to do anything. If anything most catholics just go to their home and local parishes and call it a day.

Do you have a formal document or something that says the church hid molestation charges and other formal accusations?

What I would says is, maybe thise people need to consider the fact that if the church is capable of the tremendous evil it has committed, maybe it's not the true arbiter of morality it claims to be.

Tremendous evil????
It's not the devil incarnate.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What is political about not wanting to be a part of an organization that systemically abuses and murders children?

You're mixing politics (abuse accusations) and religion (sacraments, mass, and apostolic sussession) of the church.

Murders? I haven't heard that claim before in 2021.

Peole can still support their community without supporting the Catholic church. If the church is willing to withdraw aid for people because its members protest its systemic abses, then clearly they are even more evil and corrupt than I imagined. What kind of organization would withhold charitable aid unless everyone falls in line with protectig paedophiles? If it did that, I would no longer advocate people leaving it. I would advocate its total annihilation.

What do you think would happen to the people-their homes, no food, or anything-if the church just disappeared because people hate some of its higher ups?

Sometimes I think it's because it's the church and not an old-ball organization.

I would never call anyone or anything for that matter evil.

I'd have to see some document or something that says something like that actually. I don't trust media.

The big picture would mean holding the organization accountable for its historic crimes rather than imbuing them with total impugnity. When you look at the big pictute, allowing a massiely influencial, powerful and wealthy organization to get away with systemically raping and murdering children doesn't exactly seem like a good thing for the world.

Yes, the guilty should be held accountable. I hope pope francis can fix the problem. Maybe a said apology or something or other so it won't reprimand the nature of the church and why people are actually a part of the church.

I wonder why the church has so much attention when there are many other denominations that have similar problems.