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no more Old Testament, thank you

Jehonadab

Member
Jesus quoted from the OT/Torah/Hebrew Scriptures numerous times. Jesus is referenced in the first bible prophecy at Genesis 3:15. Take away the OT and how can you prove Jesus is truly the Messiah. His birth place is foretold (Micah 5:2) how he would enter Jeresulem is foretold (Zechariah 9:9)

Don't you feel good seeing how he cared for his obediant people (Israel) and kept his promise to Abraham?
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Out with the Old and in with the New. Jesus is either the Messiah in his own right or not. The OT is only relevant to me, as ii referenced Jesus, or he referenced the OT.
 
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lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
I do respect the achievements of the Jewish ethicists and mystics who seem to derive genuine inspiration from the Hebrew scriptures and build a humane world view on top of them; but I don't know how they do it. Clearly non-Jews don't have the knack.
Apparently not. ;)

The God of the Tanakh, or as Christians call it the "Old" Testament, may come off as capricious to modern sensibilities. And yes, all too human. (why is that a bad thing?) That is how the authors viewed "Him." And since there were multiple authors, there are multiple views, some of them where God is terrifying and others where God is tender.

You are right, the vast majority of the time when a Christian is citing the OT it is usually to justify some form of hatred or oppression. Most likely, they are citing Leviticus out of context, claiming that "God's law" cannot be ignored while at the same time ignoring all the other laws in the same book that they do not care about. Perhaps you are partially right. We should not do away with the "Old Testament," but perhaps certain Christians should stop citing it.

These scriptures are first and foremost Jewish. If they were as inherently flawed as you seem to think, wouldn't you expect to see rabbis on street corners preaching damnation? Instead, as you said, Jewish ethicists and mystics were among the first to construct/recognize a humanist world view, where the worth of people are upheld regardless of rank and power. If two groups of people read the same text and get different results, I would look at the people and not the text to explain their interpretations.

I was sent to a conservative Lutheran school for five years as a kid, and the view of the OT that I was taught there is as you describe. God was wrathful, constantly PO'ed about human sin, and downright scary. And then the NT comes along and Jesus dies for our sins and now God loves us as long as we believe in Him. It is an interpretation that makes sense *if* you accept the underlying premises of original sin and substitutionary atonement. But I could not accept such a God.

Imagine my surprise the first time I discovered that the concept of original sin does not exist in Judaism. Just think of how much that would change how you interpret the stories of the OT. Then in grad school I started to learn a "new" way to view these same scriptures, on their own merits without assuming such things as original sin or any upcoming sacrifice for such sin. For example, in grade school, I had been taught that the "Prophet" books of the OT were all about predicting the coming of Jesus. In graduate school, I was taught that Prophet books were about bearing witness against injustice, were even kings are accountable to a law higher than the ones they make. Viewing the scriptures this way, one can easily see how Judaism gave birth to humanism.
 

Rolling_Stone

Well-Known Member
Even a cursory examination of the OT in comparison to the NT seems to indicate revelation is progressive.

If revelation is varied as the Bible (Heb. 1:1) suggests, why not take the OP one step further and read about the life and teachings of Jesus according to The Urantia Book?

Don't get mad...it's just a thought. :sorry1:
 

crystalonyx

Well-Known Member
I disagree. The God of the OT is a God demanding justice whereas the God of the NT is a God offering mercy. The OT puts things in context and helps the believer understand the great gift of mercy that is Christ - because without Christ, we'd still be subject to the justice of God.

This post is illogical, in that before the supposed Christ, there was not a merciful god, i.e. god is not a constant, certainly an illogical outcome.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
This post is illogical, in that before the supposed Christ, there was not a merciful god, i.e. god is not a constant, certainly an illogical outcome.
Please explain what you find inherently illogical about the statement.

It seems to me that you are insisting that the God you don't believe in has to be unchanging. If you believed in such a God, I would give you that. But since you don't, on what basis do make such a claim?
 
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applewuud

Active Member
Another way of looking at it theologically is that God may be unchanging, but it is the changing perception/realization of God by humanity that is documented by the Hebrew Bible and New Testament. Clearly, the position of God changes, and God's relationship to Israel and to the gentiles changes over time.

To return to the opening post, we may have "had it" with the OT god, but in ancient times, the people had "had it" with the then-prevalent and contradictory gods who acted completely by whim with no justice, demanding human sacrifice. To them, Yaweh was a relief.

Apologia over, the brutality of life in the desert in ancient times led to a different worldview and a different theology to match.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
Another way of looking at it theologically is that God may be unchanging, but it is the changing perception/realization of God by humanity that is documented by the Hebrew Bible and New Testament. Clearly, the position of God changes, and God's relationship to Israel and to the gentiles changes over time.
Clearly. :)

This is fodder for a different thread, but process theist/panentheist that I am, I do not view God as unchanging. There may be some aspects of God that are eternal, but that doesn't mean that God is stagnant. The only constant is change.
 

Rolling_Stone

Well-Known Member
Another way of looking at it theologically is that God may be unchanging, but it is the changing perception/realization of God by humanity that is documented by the Hebrew Bible and New Testament. Clearly, the position of God changes, and God's relationship to Israel and to the gentiles changes over time.

To return to the opening post, we may have "had it" with the OT god, but in ancient times, the people had "had it" with the then-prevalent and contradictory gods who acted completely by whim with no justice, demanding human sacrifice. To them, Yaweh was a relief.

Apologia over, the brutality of life in the desert in ancient times led to a different worldview and a different theology to match.
Well said.

In my mind, there are ideas in the NT that, while they may have been a relief then, are problematic today. The idea for the need for an atonement, for example. Although I read someplace many theologians don't believe Paul actually believed it himself but was appealing to the mystery religions of his day, it's still central to Christian theology. I wonder if mainstream Christianity will accept the idea of a God who is more consistent with the idea "God is love."

The NT has lots of good stuff, but The URANTIA Book depicts Jesus as someone I can relate to and truly love, as someone truly human and truly divine. It's certainly not for everyone, but it is to me the way the NT is to the OT to Christians: supplemental, not a replacement.
 
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