+++ No Piercing At Jesus' Side +++

[Ben Masada]

Wow Ben! how did I know you would remind me that others were crucified also?
I realize there were thousands that died needlessly. Unfortunately they didn't have the writers of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John to tell the story. Paul only carried out what he himself learned and come to believe about Jesus.
But now to tell you that I am so glad that you missed me and noticed I hadn't posted for several days...No Love my computer is fine, I was just joining some friends of some of the Holiday festivities the last few days. Those cookies I am saving just for you because your so special. :drool:
The medical lesson is because I am a medical person it just sort of flows from my inner being. Sorry hope you didn't think I was being too assertive with my knowledge.

Charity, never be sorry of telling me how much you know. I love an intelligent woman.

Ben :clap

 

[lew0049]

Yes Lew0049, I read the rest of your post. Are you a Doctor? How do you explain Dr. Luke's bloody sweating of Jesus in the Getsemane?
He said that Jesus' sweat became like drops of blood falling on the ground. (Luke 22:44)
Don't you think Dr. Luke was consulted before the "blood and water" was interpolated? He probably would sanction the interpolation.

Ben: <*)))><

No, I am definitely not a doctor but that doesn't mean that I have not researched and that medical research confirms that if these conditions existed, the result would be blood and a clear fluid. You even said that romans wouldn't pierce someone so there was no possible way these conditions could have been replicated. There is a common sense factor that needs to be used. Obviously if Luke had intended to emphasize these conditions, he would have made these points muc more obvious.

It's interesting that you mention the incidents that occurred at the Garden of Gethsemane because again, there is a medical explanation. The condition is referred to as Hematridrosis which is rare but associated with a high degree of psychological stress. Essentially, severe anxiety (which He obviously would have been experiencing knowing he was going to be captured/tortured) causes the chemicals to break down the capillaries in the sweat glands - the result is a small amount of bleeding in these sweat glands in which a small amount of blood would come out in these glands. Another result of this would have the skin being fragile and the flogging that occurred the next day would cause even more bleeding. Again, look up the conditions for yourself because I don't have to know anything in the medical field to do research.

 

[Charity]

No, I am definitely not a doctor but that doesn't mean that I have not researched and that medical research confirms that if these conditions existed, the result would be blood and a clear fluid. You even said that romans wouldn't pierce someone so there was no possible way these conditions could have been replicated. There is a common sense factor that needs to be used. Obviously if Luke had intended to emphasize these conditions, he would have made these points muc more obvious.

It's interesting that you mention the incidents that occurred at the Garden of Gethsemane because again, there is a medical explanation. The condition is referred to as Hematridrosis which is rare but associated with a high degree of psychological stress. Essentially, severe anxiety (which He obviously would have been experiencing knowing he was going to be captured/tortured) causes the chemicals to break down the capillaries in the sweat glands - the result is a small amount of bleeding in these sweat glands in which a small amount of blood would come out in these glands. Another result of this would have the skin being fragile and the flogging that occurred the next day would cause even more bleeding. Again, look up the conditions for yourself because I don't have to know anything in the medical field to do research.

Sorry you must have missed my post on this, you could have saved yourself some time on this. But it's good that you did your homework on the subject. I'm enjoying your participation in the discussion with Ben. Keep on your toes, and don't tell Ben I said so, but he is well versed in his knowledge of these subjects and he likes cookies too, so he must be a good guy....

 

[lew0049]

haha yeah Charity, I didn't notice your post until after I wrote mine... oh well

 

[Charity]

haha yeah Charity, I didn't notice your post until after I wrote mine... oh well

Well you know what they say about Great minds......Thinking alike...

 

[Ben Masada]

No, I am definitely not a doctor but that doesn't mean that I have not researched and that medical research confirms that if these conditions existed, the result would be blood and a clear fluid. You even said that romans wouldn't pierce someone so there was no possible way these conditions could have been replicated. There is a common sense factor that needs to be used. Obviously if Luke had intended to emphasize these conditions, he would have made these points muc more obvious.

It's interesting that you mention the incidents that occurred at the Garden of Gethsemane because again, there is a medical explanation. The condition is referred to as Hematridrosis which is rare but associated with a high degree of psychological stress. Essentially, severe anxiety (which He obviously would have been experiencing knowing he was going to be captured/tortured) causes the chemicals to break down the capillaries in the sweat glands - the result is a small amount of bleeding in these sweat glands in which a small amount of blood would come out in these glands. Another result of this would have the skin being fragile and the flogging that occurred the next day would cause even more bleeding. Again, look up the conditions for yourself because I don't have to know anything in the medical field to do research.

Do you know something? I am more inclined to believe the report of Luke in the Gethsemane than in the report of Matthew about the piercing.

Ben: <*)))><

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

3 - That Centurion and his men could never by their own accord pierce Jesus after their recognition that Jesus was indeed the son of God.
This is for lack of any other option, a confession that they had converted themselves to the Cause of Jesus. That's in Matthew 27:54.

The new watch of "soldiers" had taken over "since the Preparation (which is the Fore-Sabbath) had begun (when evening had come)". John 19:31a Mark 15:42.
"Joseph after these things ... (which) the Jews had asked Pilate" to be done and "the soldiers then came" and did as told in 31-34, "... besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus". The "centurion" of the previous day-time guard, at that time of night informed Pilate in his palace, that Jesus had died "considerable time before already", Mark 15:44,45.

 

[Kemosloby]

The bible says they broke the legs of the other people on the crosses, but Jesus they pierced with a spear. It wasn't until after they pierced Jesus that he gave up the ghost, and when he did, it was like thunder or an earthquake, causing the centurion to believe and say, Jesus really was the Son of God.

 

[omega2xx]

Here are three reasons why Jesus was never pierced at his side on the cross:

1- The custom to rush the death of all the Jews crucified by the Romans was Jewish and not Roman; and the practice was done only on Fridays,
so that the bodies would not be left hanging during the hours of the Sabbath. And the method was leg-breaking and not spear-piercing.
The Romans wouldn't care less if the Jewish Sabbath got desecrated by the bodies on the crosses.

2 - There is a tradition that the Centurion was richly bribed by Joseph of Arimathea, who was a very rich man in Israel, to just let him - Joseph - take
Jesus off the cross and report back to Pilate that Jesus was indeed already dead.

3 - That Centurion and his men could never by their own accord pierce Jesus after their recognition that Jesus was indeed the son of God.
This is for lack of any other option, a confession that they had converted themselves to the Cause of Jesus. That's in Matthew 27:54.

The first and third reasons dispense with any other evidence that the piercing of Jesus' side by a Roman spear was an interpolation by
either the writer of the Gospel or by the Fathers of the Church in 327 CE, when they selected the books into the Canon of the NT.

Ben

Once upon a time.....and they live happily ever after.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Once upon a time.....and they live happily ever after.

I do believe Jesus lived happily ever after he left the Land of Israel after those 40 days he appeared to his disciples and left with his wife Mary Magdalene and Joseph of Arimathea. Otherwise, if they had remained in Israel, they would for sure be rearrested and taken back to the cross. Mary Magdalene because she couldn't be left behind without her husband and, Joseph of Arimathea because he would be arrested for having cheated on Pilate about Jesus' death when he was still alive. That's in the gospel of Mark if you read the last or previous chapter.

 

[Ben Avraham]

The new watch of "soldiers" had taken over "since the Preparation (which is the Fore-Sabbath) had begun (when evening had come)". John 19:31a Mark 15:42.
"Joseph after these things ... (which) the Jews had asked Pilate" to be done and "the soldiers then came" and did as told in 31-34, "... besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus". The "centurion" of the previous day-time guard, at that time of night informed Pilate in his palace, that Jesus had died "considerable time before already", Mark 15:44,45.

Of course! What else could the Centurion say after he was well bribed to say nothing that Jesus was still alive? According to Flavius Josephus it was not uncommon for Jews to remain in their crosses up to even 4 days. Jesus was only about 3 hours. There was a high percentage that he was still alive. Hence Luke says in Acts 1:1-3 that Jesus appeared to his disciples for 40 days after his passion in the cross. So, he appeared to his disciples for some last instructions before he left the Land of Israel with his wife Mary of Magdalene and "his savior" Joseph of Arimathea who had come in time and used a lot of money to buy the silence of the Centurion. It didn't matter how the Romans hated the Jews for money could turn even hatred into love. Besides, to appear to his disciple after his passion is not evidence even that he had died; let alone that he resurrected.

 

[Ben Avraham]

The bible says they broke the legs of the other people on the crosses, but Jesus they pierced with a spear. It wasn't until after they pierced Jesus that he gave up the ghost, and when he did, it was like thunder or an earthquake, causing the centurion to believe and say, Jesus really was the Son of God.

Yes, some Jews were paid to do that job every Friday just prior to the beginning of the Sabbath but, to pierce with a spear was Roman, not Jewish and, the Romans would not open an exception to do a special job that they had never done before. Probably, the piercing of Jesus was a later interpolation by the Fathers of the Church to score one more prophecy to enhance Jesus' credibility as Messiah.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Do you know something? I am more inclined to believe the report of Luke in the Gethsemane than in the report of Matthew about the piercing.

Ben: <*)))><

Very good but, don't be too ready to believe according to your inclination but the truth or logical evidence; although, I do find your inclination progressively in the way of the truth

 

[Kemosloby]

Yes, some Jews were paid to do that job every Friday just prior to the beginning of the Sabbath but, to pierce with a spear was Roman, not Jewish and, the Romans would not open an exception to do a special job that they had never done before. Probably, the piercing of Jesus was a later interpolation by the Fathers of the Church to score one more prophecy to enhance Jesus' credibility as Messiah.

Then you agree that piercing the side was prophecy of the Messiah?

 

[Ben Avraham]

No, I am definitely not a doctor but that doesn't mean that I have not researched and that medical research confirms that if these conditions existed, the result would be blood and a clear fluid. You even said that romans wouldn't pierce someone so there was no possible way these conditions could have been replicated. There is a common sense factor that needs to be used. Obviously if Luke had intended to emphasize these conditions, he would have made these points muc more obvious.

It's interesting that you mention the incidents that occurred at the Garden of Gethsemane because again, there is a medical explanation. The condition is referred to as Hematridrosis which is rare but associated with a high degree of psychological stress. Essentially, severe anxiety (which He obviously would have been experiencing knowing he was going to be captured/tortured) causes the chemicals to break down the capillaries in the sweat glands - the result is a small amount of bleeding in these sweat glands in which a small amount of blood would come out in these glands. Another result of this would have the skin being fragile and the flogging that occurred the next day would cause even more bleeding. Again, look up the conditions for yourself because I don't have to know anything in the medical field to do research.

The flogging, no question about it. It did happen because it was part of the job of the soldiers. They had to flog all the candidates to the cross to turn down their personal resistance to the motion of the crucifixion on the Calvary.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Then you agree that piercing the side was prophecy of the Messiah?

No, I do not! It never happened. It was a forgery interpolated by the Fathers of the Church. BTW, the piercing of one's
hands carries the meaning that his freedom has been removed.

 

[Kemosloby]

No, I do not! It never happened. It was a forgery interpolated by the Fathers of the Church. BTW, the piercing of one's
hands carries the meaning that his freedom has been removed.

No, you accused the "church fathers" of creating the story that Jesus' side was pierced, And that they did it to satisfy another OT prophecy of the Messiah. Which means you either believe piercing of the side to be an OT prophecy, or you are a false accuser.

 

[omega2xx]

I do believe Jesus lived happily ever after he left the Land of Israel after those 40 days he appeared to his disciples and left with his wife Mary Magdalene and Joseph of Arimathea. Otherwise, if they had remained in Israel, they would for sure be rearrested and taken back to the cross. Mary Magdalene because she couldn't be left behind without her husband and, Joseph of Arimathea because he would be arrested for having cheated on Pilate about Jesus' death when he was still alive. That's in the gospel of Mark if you read the last or previous chapter.

I was referring to the remark that Jesus' side was not pierced. If someone wants to contradict what the Bible says they need more than an opinion.

 

[rusra02]

The account in Mark 15:44,45 shows Pilate made sure Jesus was dead before releasing the body to Joseph. The account in John 19:33-37 harmonizes with this: "But on coming to Jesus, they saw that he was already dead, so they did not break his legs. But one of the soldiers jabbed his side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. And the one who has seen it has given this witness, and his witness is true, and he knows that what he says is true, so that you also may believe. In fact, these things took place for the scripture to be fulfilled: “Not a bone of his will be broken.” And again, a different scripture says: “They will look to the one whom they pierced." Thus I believe these events fulfilled Bible prophecy, and there is absolutely no reason to doubt they occurred as reported in the Bible.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Of course! What else could the Centurion say after he was well bribed to say nothing that Jesus was still alive? According to Flavius Josephus it was not uncommon for Jews to remain in their crosses up to even 4 days. Jesus was only about 3 hours. There was a high percentage that he was still alive. Hence Luke says in Acts 1:1-3 that Jesus appeared to his disciples for 40 days after his passion in the cross. So, he appeared to his disciples for some last instructions before he left the Land of Israel with his wife Mary of Magdalene and "his savior" Joseph of Arimathea who had come in time and used a lot of money to buy the silence of the Centurion. It didn't matter how the Romans hated the Jews for money could turn even hatred into love. Besides, to appear to his disciple after his passion is not evidence even that he had died; let alone that he resurrected.

<<What else could the Centurion say after he was well bribed to say nothing that Jesus was still alive?>>


I cannot remember to have read where the Centurion present at Jesus’ cross when He died, <<was well bribed to say nothing that Jesus was still alive>>? How awkward! The Centurion witnessed Jesus’ last breath the very hour his watch ended on the 14th day of the Jews’ First Month of the year.

At which “ninth hour” of the day for the Jews “everybody left and went home”, the Roman guard as well, their duty to oversee the crucifixion, done. Luke 23:47,48.


Then “when evening had come” on the 15th day of the month, “the Jews requested Pilate to get the bodies removed so that they would not remain on the cross on that day, Great-Day-Sabbath” of their feast of unleavened bread. “But Pilate was surprised that Jesus was dead already. So he summoned for the centurion who affirmed that Jesus was dead for “considerable time” since 3 p.m. on the 14th.


Then Pilate ordered soldiers to do as the Jews had asked, and they “CAME” to the unguarded crosses and crushed the bones of the two criminals who both still were alive, while one of them noticed that Jesus was already dead and thrust the spear into his side.


Meantime Pilate had granted Joseph the body and ordered that the soldiers “deliver the body to Joseph” who must have arrived just in time to “see what had been done” and receive the body of Jesus and unwitting prevented that his body was “taken away” to where crucified corpses were usually dumped.


There was no point in for a guard on the vacated site of a crucifixion; so the soldiers after errand completed, had left any time of night “after evening had come”.


No guard features all night long “after these thing” after Pilate had the body delivered to Joseph, and Joseph started “preparing” Jesus’ body for burial “at That First Night” of unleavened bread feast on the 15th day of the First Month.


And no guard features all day long while the two Marys “followed after” in the procession to the grave and “sitting over against the tomb, looked on” as Joseph and Nicodemus “because it became time for the Jews’ Sabbath preparations, laid the body in the tomb prepared and ready.” John 19:41. “And That Day was the Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath (‘Friday’) and the Sabbath was approaching mid-afternoon. So they went home and prepared spices and ointments.” Luke 23:54-56a.


For the rest of the day no guard was needed; so no guard was near, from when “the women began to rest the Sabbath-according-to-the-(Fourth-)Commandment” until on the 16th day of the First Month “the day after the Preparation (the weekly Sabbath after Friday), the chief priests and the Pharisees had a meeting with Pilate … and they went and secured the grave sealing the stone and SETTING A GUARD” Matthew 27:62-66, say about 9 a.m..


For 42 hours there was no guard—

on Thursday Abib 14… 3 hours;

on Friday Abib 15… 24 hours;

on Friday night Abib 16… 12 hours;

on Saturday Abib 16… 3 hours = 42 hours.

Only after about 42 hours after the last watch at the crucifixion under supervision of the “centurion”, there is mention of a guard again! But

the Centurion

AT THE CROSS <<was bribed to say nothing that Jesus was still alive>> YET ANOTHER 21 TO 24 HOURS AFTER ON SUNDAY MORNING? It must be a world record for the longest watch in human history, 66 hours long!