No thanks no God!

[Hereashortwhileonly]

Which begs the question: how are you going to make your point?

Ciao

- viole

I have no point to make. If someone comes away thinking about appreciation, even myself, then I will be happy. Do I appreciate this coffee in front of me?

I make the coffee. I drink the coffee.

If I say thank you for the coffee, is the coffee experience made better?
Without saying thanks for the coffee, is something missing?

 

[ChristineM]

Imagine a country where no-one said thanks or gave praise.
The instincts were removed through brain operation at birth.
It was found that these were the instincts which led people to want to give thanks for life, to give praise for beauty of nature, and this meant seeking God.
The NoThanksNoGod country found that without these instincts, people no longer had a need to worship God.

Would these people be happy?

Well it don't worship a god and am happy and contented as i would wish to be.

 

[viole]

I have no point to make. If someone comes away thinking about appreciation, even myself, then I will be happy. Do I appreciate this coffee in front of me?

I make the coffee. I drink the coffee.

If I say thank you for the coffee, is the coffee experience made better?
Without saying thanks for the coffee, is something missing?

are you telling me that your belief (in whatever deity) is a subjective experience?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Hereashortwhileonly]

are you telling me that your belief (in whatever deity) is a subjective experience?

Ciao

- viole

The subjective / objective dichotomy is false and causes great problems in the western mind, bestowed to us by the enlightenment.

If we all have a subjective, then it is logically impossible ever to know an objective. (For that is what makes it objective.)

The only reason people still talk about the Objective, is they can't let go of Absolute Truth. That's not because people are inclined to believe false things, but the opposite.

People are inclined to believe things because it satisfies an essential truth that they have intuitive knowledge of. And knowing the truth is an essential need for human beings.

Giving thanks/ praise is one such essential need.
Giving thanks/ praise is a relational act.
If you deny me the chance to give thanks/ praise to God, I will have to satisfy this in another way.
I will make another god, to which I will direct an amount of thanks and praise undue to them / it.
We see it all the time in society.
I am hearing people obsess over a football game as though a team winning at football is full of meaning. Fine, I know it makes people happy. It may be full of meaning for them.
But I believe it indicates something else - that they are deprived collective meaning, and find it in a game.

are you telling me that your belief (in whatever deity) is a subjective experience?

Ciao

- viole

 

[McBell]

We are relational creatures. Appreciation is relational.

With you so far....

To appreciate life, we would have to appreciate a creator of life.

Based on what?
You already said that the same does not apply to thankfulness.
So why would it have to apply to appreciation?

He would know what was in our hearts, so it would be impossible to have such appreciation (or its lack) without them knowing.

So what is the problem?

But can I be thankful to my dad, if my dad is no longer alive?

Yes.
Because you have not revealed why your dad needing to know you are thankful is a requirement for you being thankful.

I suppose I can be thankful for him. But as he is no longer alive, it would be impossible to be thankful to him.

Again, until you can show that your being thankful is not valid unless the one you are thankful to/for knows it.....

 

[Hereashortwhileonly]

With you so far....


Based on what?
You already said that the same does not apply to thankfulness.
So why would it have to apply to appreciation?


So what is the problem?


Yes.
Because you have not revealed why your dad needing to know you are thankful is a requirement for you being thankful.


Again, until you can show that your being thankful is not valid unless the one you are thankful to/for knows it.....

Hi, I'm not sure how to use the quote function so I'll try to answer your points in summary.

It's not that my dad needs to know about me being thankful to him, for my thanks to be valid - it is that thanks, as with appreciation, is a relational act.

It requires a subject and an object.

If I direct thanks to someone then they will know about it, of course.
If I give thanks for someone, then there must be someone who can receive that thanks. This is the only way, logically, that we can be thankful for someone who has passed away.

There is another type of appreciation, as one of the commentators said earlier, which is like "music appreciation" - it means being able to appreciate the qualities of something, a work of art, a person, nature.

No doubt, this is entirely possible to work on without thinking of someone to direct apprecition to.

But I think the human being requires relation as part of their appreciation - and that's why people tend to worship, or deify, artists these days. Or youtube stars, or whomever.

 

[Polymath257]

That's because it's a natural instinct

Appreciation is relational. I don't say, I appreciate this house, without appreciating the one who made the house or designed the house, and honouring him.

Well I do. I appreciate a tree even though I know nobody planted it. I appreciate the sun even though it was not made by an intelligence. I am amazed by the world around me without needing to think it was created.

 

[Polymath257]

One can appreciate without thanks or praise but it would be deficient.

I can appreciate a classical music concert, without expressing any thanks or praise to the conductor, but I think it would be a very deficient and quite sad appreciation. I would be taking and not giving. I don't think it would be a true appreciation.

This is the same with everything in life. I can appreciate any blessings of my upbringing, but if I don't say thank you to my parents at the same time, it wouldn't feel right somehow.

Is appreciation essential to happiness?

I'm not sure why it would be deficient if there is nobody to thank. I can still appreciate the beauty and awesomeness that is around me. I don't have to thank my wife's parents to appreciate her existence.

And I wouldn't consider it to be sad.

 

[Polymath257]

You are fully entitled to your outlook.
But I believe it conflicts with reality. Appreciation is a relational instinct.

I disagree. Appreciation is simply finding value in something else. No relationship is required.

 

[McBell]

Hi, I'm not sure how to use the quote function so I'll try to answer your points in summary.

It's not that my dad needs to know about me being thankful to him, for my thanks to be valid - it is that thanks, as with appreciation, is a relational act.

You keep mentioning "relational act" as though merely using the term is supposed to explain something.
And I flat out admit, I have no idea what it is you think the term explains.

It requires a subject and an object.

If I direct thanks to someone then they will know about it, of course.
If I give thanks for someone, then there must be someone who can receive that thanks. This is the only way, logically, that we can be thankful for someone who has passed away.

Now you will need to explain to me the difference you see between thankful to and thankful for.
And this is simply because your seem to be (it appears to me) conflating them and transferring them at the same time.

There is another type of appreciation, as one of the commentators said earlier, which is like "music appreciation" - it means being able to appreciate the qualities of something, a work of art, a person, nature.

No doubt, this is entirely possible to work on without thinking of someone to direct appreciation to.

But I think the human being requires relation as part of their appreciation - and that's why people tend to worship, or deify, artists these days. Or youtube stars, or whomever.

It still sounds like you think that the one you are appreciative of/to has to know in order for you to feel the appreciation is "valid".

 

[Polymath257]

We are relational creatures. Appreciation is relational.

I disagree. it is very possible to appreciate something that has nobody behind it.

To appreciate life, we would have to appreciate a creator of life.

Why? That seems like an unnecessary add-on.

He would know what was in our hearts, so it would be impossible to have such appreciation (or its lack) without them knowing.

Once again, I disagree. it is quite possible to appreciate the contributions someone makes without letting them know you appreciate it.

But can I be thankful to my dad, if my dad is no longer alive?
I suppose I can be thankful for him. But as he is no longer alive, it would be impossible to be thankful to him.

Actually, I would say that you can. You appreciate what he did and its affect on your life.

 

[Polymath257]

I have no point to make. If someone comes away thinking about appreciation, even myself, then I will be happy. Do I appreciate this coffee in front of me?

I make the coffee. I drink the coffee.

If I say thank you for the coffee, is the coffee experience made better?
Without saying thanks for the coffee, is something missing?

I make the coffee. I drink the coffee. I enjoy the coffee. I appreciate the coffee. It made my day better.

I really don't see the problem.

 

[JustGeorge]

Appreciation is relational. I don't say, I appreciate this house, without appreciating the one who made the house or designed the house, and honouring him.

Wow! What a thought... I never have really contemplated who built my house, but I suppose a lot of people did. Certainly, they're all gone now as my house is over 100 years old... Thanks to you for this bit of insight!

I have no point to make. If someone comes away thinking about appreciation, even myself, then I will be happy. Do I appreciate this coffee in front of me?

I make the coffee. I drink the coffee.

If I say thank you for the coffee, is the coffee experience made better?
Without saying thanks for the coffee, is something missing?

I sometimes say a short prayer over my food, when I remember: "Annadata Sukhibhava", which means: 'those who are providing me with this food, let them be happy'. It does give me a bit of extra gratitude, thinking of all those who made my meal possible.

 

[firedragon]

Imagine a country where no-one said thanks or gave praise.
The instincts were removed through brain operation at birth.
It was found that these were the instincts which led people to want to give thanks for life, to give praise for beauty of nature, and this meant seeking God.
The NoThanksNoGod country found that without these instincts, people no longer had a need to worship God.

Would these people be happy?

Oh God. Now you will get a hell of a lot of assumptions.

This is actually a good question. But the thing is, my response will be an assumption. There is no real research that I know of to answer this. But its a fantastic question. I am gonna dwell on it a bit.

My opinion is that this "NoThanksNoGod" country might also be happy because humans do have some intrinsic natures that I find hard to find scientific explanations to. So I believe they will also be happy.

But there are many buts. Again, its a super great question. I know some people have delved years and years into this question. And tomorrow, they still will. Thanks a lot.

 

[Hereashortwhileonly]

I disagree. it is very possible to appreciate something that has nobody behind it.



Why? That seems like an unnecessary add-on.



Once again, I disagree. it is quite possible to appreciate the contributions someone makes without letting them know you appreciate it.



Actually, I would say that you can. You appreciate what he did and its affect on your life.

Hi, thanks for your engagement.

A lot of misunderstanding is arising over the word, appreciation.

There are two sense to this word, I posit:

1. To appreciate some thing/ being for its qualities.

2. To give one's appreciation to someone, for some thing/ being and its qualities. In other words, to give thanks and praise.

I posit that the second aspect is essential to our nature as relational beings, and it is impossible to satisfy without God.

How so?

Let me give the example of this conversation. Let's say I have appreciated it. It may good manners to give thanks to you, but would that satisfy my need to thanks/ praise?

Lets say I give thanks/ praise to the people who set up the website?

Okay, again, might be good manners, and identify people deserving of credit, but again, would it give full satisfaction to the need?

Do I need to give thanks/ credit to the people who made my laptop?

 

[exchemist]

I have no point to make. If someone comes away thinking about appreciation, even myself, then I will be happy. Do I appreciate this coffee in front of me?

I make the coffee. I drink the coffee.

If I say thank you for the coffee, is the coffee experience made better?
Without saying thanks for the coffee, is something missing?

Since you made it, who are you going to thank? Yourself?

 

[JustGeorge]

Since you made it, who are you going to thank? Yourself?

One could.

Sometimes some of us don't take enough time out to appreciate what we do!

 

[exchemist]

One could.

Sometimes some of us don't take enough time out to appreciate what we do!

This actually leads on to a point I was contemplating making o this thread. A great deal of happiness in this life comes from things we have done, which give us a sense of achievement and satisfaction. I even feel happy when I have completed and sent off my tax return.

But I don't feel some weird need to give thanks, let alone "praise", to anyone about it.

 

[Hereashortwhileonly]

Since you made it, who are you going to thank? Yourself?

Well that goes to the point. I made the coffee. But I didn't "make" myself. I didn't "make" coffee itself. I didn't "make" time, which enables process to happen, a before and after and completion.

If everything is only process and there is no one to identify, then, logically, there is no one to give genuine thanks or praise to.

This is the logic of a godless universe.

If atheist-types don't want to accept that, as is their prerogative, I suggest it means they really don't accept their own atheism...

 

[JustGeorge]

This actually leads on to a point I was contemplating making o this thread. A great deal of happiness in this life comes from things we have done, which give us a sense of achievement and satisfaction. I even feel happy when I have completed and sent off my tax return.

But I don't feel some weird need to give thanks, let alone "praise", to anyone about it.

As someone who looks at a tax return and feels it probably came from Neptune, this is something you should feel pride in.

I find I feel good acknowledging. Before Covid, I shopped Farmer's Markets because I liked the connection with those who grew my food. I didn't yammer on to them, but it gave me a sense of being connected.

I sense we all find this 'appreciative centeredness'(for lack of a better term) in different ways, and that's okay. All in all gratitude, no matter where or how we place it, is a positive.