No true Christian?

[Kenny]

What do you think about this? It has me a little concerned due to a surgery that turned me into a real Sutekh.


"He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD"

Deuteronomy 23:1

In the anointing of Christ, there is mercy for all (in our belief system)

 

[Harel13]

But we aren't talking about "scriptures" thus my answer isn't a "deflection". I pointed out that Jewishness and division exists within Jewish thought and you wanted to establish that it was only a "Christian" problem.

Your answer was to point out that there is some differences that are irreconcilable within the Christian faith, which there are, but we are still Christian. I would venture than Jeroboam was also a difference that was irreconcilable yet still Jewish.

So, we should be able to agree that we both have differences but love seems to override the differences.

Backtrack:
My view: Jews have division. Some of those dividing points are considered not-Jewish. But they are all still Jews. However, for many millennia now, Jews, per the Torah - both the Written and Oral - also got to decide who can be considered Jewish and who cannot. There were always two ways to become Jewish: either by birth or by proper conversion. In the last few centuries more and more less acceptable views have entered Judaism. Reform Jews by birth, for example, are no less Jewish than, say, an Ultra-Orthodox Jew. That doesn't mean that Reform Judaism in its entirety is acceptable. Some yes, not everything.

Your view (to the best of my understanding): All who consider themselves Christians are Christian. Because of this, any person who considers themselves a Jew, is also Jewish, regardless of what Judaism (whichever sect) has to say on the matter.

So really, according to you, there's no place for any rules of any sort, because we are what we believe we are, regardless of what those belief systems actually say about us.

Is this a correct understanding of your view?

 

[Kenny]

Backtrack:

OK.. we may have gotten mixed all up here.

My view: Jews have division. Some of those dividing points are considered not-Jewish. But they are all still Jews. However, for many millennia now, Jews, per the Torah - both the Written and Oral - also got to decide who can be considered Jewish and who cannot. There were always two ways to become Jewish: either by birth or by proper conversion. In the last few centuries more and more less acceptable views have entered Judaism. Reform Jews by birth, for example, are no less Jewish than, say, an Ultra-Orthodox Jew. That doesn't mean that Reform Judaism in its entirety is acceptable. Some yes, not everything.

Ok... seems ok. A little confusing when some will say Reform Judaism isn't entirely acceptable (though they personally may think so) - I guess there is someone who establishes what is and what isn't - and whoever that is, they are the deciding factor although those in Reform Judaism would not accept their decision.


But... OK

Your view (to the best of my understanding): All who consider themselves Christians are Christian. Because of this, any person who considers themselves a Jew, is also Jewish, regardless of what Judaism (whichever sect) has to say on the matter.

No. that isn't what I was trying to say.

If I ask a JW, Mormon, Baptism, etc etc.... "Do you believe that Jesus came to this earth, died on the cross for the remission of your sins, rose again, is seated at the right hand of the Father, will come again and Jesus is your Lord and Savior?"

They would all say "yes".

Trusting their heart confession, I would say they are a Christian.

Now, like the Reform Judaism, in the particulars, one group may say that the other group has certain aspects wrong but would still accept them as Christians. (Exceptions in 2 billion adherents)

As far as Jewishness. I understand that in the Mosaic Covenant and through tradition, those in power would say "This person is Jewish and this one isn't".

The Samaritans, of course, would disagree (and there was quite a rift between the two).

I also understand that, in the interpretation of who is Jew within the context of the Talmud, I would not qualify as a Jew. Although the Jewish Apostle Paul may disagree and have a different viewpoint.

So really, according to you, there's no place for any rules of any sort, because we are what we believe we are, regardless of what those belief systems actually say about us.

So, obviously, this is mute.

 

[Harel13]

As far as Jewishness. I understand that in the Mosaic Covenant and through tradition, those in power would say "This person is Jewish and this one isn't".

The Samaritans, of course, would disagree (and there was quite a rift between the two).

I also understand that, in the interpretation of who is Jew within the context of the Talmud, I would not qualify as a Jew. Although the Jewish Apostle Paul may disagree and have a different viewpoint.

OK.. we may have gotten mixed all up here.

Definitely. Who gets to decide anything according to you?

 

[Kenny]

Definitely. Who gets to decide anything according to you?

YHWH - IMV, the ONLY true God! The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

[Harel13]

YHWH - IMV, the ONLY true God! The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

[Kenny]

You should be honored. and may there be peace in Jerusalem.

Shalom

 

[Harel13]

You should be honored. and may there be peace in Jerusalem.

Shalom

Honored? If I say that God doesn't want people to be Christians, and some Baha'i says: both of you guys are wrong and Baha'ism is the true way, and some Mormon says: we'll keep adding books 'cause these are from god...well, where does that leaves any of us? Absolutely nowhere.
You say that there's a one truth, but really you're left with no way to define that truth, which is near equivalent to there being no one truth.

 

[Kenny]

Honored? If I say that God doesn't want people to be Christians, and some Baha'i says: both of you guys are wrong and Baha'ism is the true way, and some Mormon says: we'll keep adding books 'cause these are from god...well, where does that leaves any of us? Absolutely nowhere.
You say that there's a one truth, but really you're left with no way to define that truth, which is near equivalent to there being no one truth.

I know we have deviated from the original OP... we haven't been discussing what is truth etc. This is actually a totally different subject.

My position is that the Tannakh has weaved in it the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Never talked about the Mormon Bible or the JW Bible... only the basic faith for being a Christian.

 

[metis]

Will someone explain to me how is it evidenced that the Tanakh/Bible are true but the Bhagavad Gita and the Quran are not? Just asken.

 

[Harel13]

I know we have deviated from the original OP... we haven't been discussing what is truth etc. This is actually a totally different subject.

My position is that the Tannakh has weaved in it the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Never talked about the Mormon Bible or the JW Bible... only the basic faith for being a Christian.

Yes, true, let's get back to the topic at hand. My OP was that I think that many denominations deny the Christianity of others and asked whether I needed to be corrected or not and if not - why? You say that's not the case. Very well. Do most Christians agree with you on this?

 

[Vouthon]

Yes, true, let's get back to the topic at hand. My OP was that I think that many denominations deny the Christianity of others and asked whether I needed to be corrected or not and if not - why? You say that's not the case. Very well. Do most Christians agree with you on this?

My perspective, if I may interject in the absence of Ken for a moment, is that the vast majority of Christians do not deny the Christianity of the vast majority of other Christians, even as they might diverge with them over proper church governance or interpretation of this or that theological fine-point.

That's because roughly 99% of the world's Christian population is either Catholic (1.3 billion, 51-53%), Protestant (800 - 900 million, 36.7%) or Orthodox (230 million 12%). These branches are all variations of Nicene Christianity, which has a relative authority in Christendom akin to that of the Shema Yisrael combined with Maimonides 13 principles of the Jewish faith. Back to the chart again:

The latter - whilst not doctrinally binding in the way the Nicene creed became as a result of its majority definition by the bishops at an ecumenical council of the entire church - pretty much summarises 'orthodox' Judaism, just as the Nicene creed summarizes 'orthodox' Christianity of the mainstream denominations that account for well in excess of 2 billion of the roughly 2.4 billion Christians.

There are only 28,430,000 non-Nicene/non-Trinitarian Christians, according to the official Pew Research breakdown, amounting to just 1.3% of the global Christian popuation:

Nicene Creed - Wikipedia

Nicene Christianity - Wikipedia

Beyond this, a large portion of the mainstream churches consider the 28 million 'non-Trinitarians' to still qualify as Christians, just of a less than orthodox character. There are a sizeable minority who do not consider non-Nicene Christians to be 'real Christians' and an even smaller group of hard-nuts who would deny even that other Nicene Christians are real Christians but on both accounts (particularly the latter), these are certainly minorities in my opinion.

 

[Harel13]

My perspective, if I may interject in the absence of Ken for a moment, is that the vast majority of Christians do not deny the Christianity of the vast majority of other Christians, even as they might diverge with them over proper church governance or interpretation of this or that theological fine-point.

That's because roughly 99% of the world's Christian population is either Catholic (1.3 billion, 51-53%), Protestant (800 - 900 million, 36.7%) or Orthodox (230 million 12%). These branches are all variations of Nicene Christianity, which has a relative authority in Christendom akin to that of the Shema Yisrael combined with Maimonides 13 principles of the Jewish faith. Back to the chart again:

The latter - whilst not doctrinally binding in the way the Nicene creed became as a result of its majority definition by the bishops at an ecumenical council of the entire church - pretty much summarises 'orthodox' Judaism, just as the Nicene creed summarizes 'orthodox' Christianity of the mainstream denominations that account for well in excess of 2 billion of the roughly 2.4 billion Christians.

There are only 28,430,000 non-Nicene/non-Trinitarian Christians, according to the official Pew Research breakdown, amounting to just 1.3% of the global Christian popuation:

Nicene Creed - Wikipedia

Nicene Christianity - Wikipedia

Beyond this, a large portion of the mainstream churches consider the 28 million 'non-Trinitarians' to still qualify as Christians, just of a less than orthodox character. There are a sizeable minority who do not consider non-Nicene Christians to be 'real Christians' and an even smaller group of hard-nuts who would deny even that other Nicene Christians are real Christians but on both accounts (particularly the latter), these are certainly minorities in my opinion.

I'm happy to have been corrected on the matter.

 

[Kenny]

My perspective, if I may interject in the absence of Ken for a moment, is that the vast majority of Christians do not deny the Christianity of the vast majority of other Christians, even as they might diverge with them over proper church governance or interpretation of this or that theological fine-point.

That's because roughly 99% of the world's Christian population is either Catholic (1.3 billion, 51-53%), Protestant (800 - 900 million, 36.7%) or Orthodox (230 million 12%). These branches are all variations of Nicene Christianity, which has a relative authority in Christendom akin to that of the Shema Yisrael combined with Maimonides 13 principles of the Jewish faith. Back to the chart again:

The latter - whilst not doctrinally binding in the way the Nicene creed became as a result of its majority definition by the bishops at an ecumenical council of the entire church - pretty much summarises 'orthodox' Judaism, just as the Nicene creed summarizes 'orthodox' Christianity of the mainstream denominations that account for well in excess of 2 billion of the roughly 2.4 billion Christians.

There are only 28,430,000 non-Nicene/non-Trinitarian Christians, according to the official Pew Research breakdown, amounting to just 1.3% of the global Christian popuation:

Nicene Creed - Wikipedia

Nicene Christianity - Wikipedia

Beyond this, a large portion of the mainstream churches consider the 28 million 'non-Trinitarians' to still qualify as Christians, just of a less than orthodox character. There are a sizeable minority who do not consider non-Nicene Christians to be 'real Christians' and an even smaller group of hard-nuts who would deny even that other Nicene Christians are real Christians but on both accounts (particularly the latter), these are certainly minorities in my opinion.

What can I add? Well documented.

 

[Kenny]

Will someone explain to me how is it evidenced that the Tanakh/Bible are true but the Bhagavad Gita and the Quran are not? Just asken.

Great question. Let me rephrase... There are books in all religions that contain truth and wisdom as God deals with all people but, as a believer that I am, the prophetic veracity is found in the Tannakh.

 

[Vouthon]

Will someone explain to me how is it evidenced that the Tanakh/Bible are true but the Bhagavad Gita and the Quran are not? Just asken.

I second Ken's post, a great question indeed Metis!

As you know my friend, the stance of Christians concerning the existence of "truth" in religions other than Judaism is highly variable, ranging from: the most pluralistic and pro-interfaith dialogue (such as our own Catholic tradition, liberal Protestants and Mormons) to the most exclusivist and entrenched theologies (especially our Evangelical Protestant brethren).

Virtually all Christians believe that God's historical covenant with Israel represents an unprecedented and 'special' revelation in the divine economy, not because it is the only communication between God and humanity (far from it the Noahide covenant precedes it while Abraham is to be the father of many nations, as the words attributed to St. Paul in the Book of Acts evidence: "From one ancestor he made all nations to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, 27 so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find him—though indeed he is not far from each one of us. 28 For ‘In him we live and move and have our being’" (Acts 17:26-28)), rather due to the fact that in the words of Nostra Aetate 1965 (Catholic Church's declaration on Non-Christian Religions):


Nostra aetate

"...the Church of Christ acknowledges that, according to God's saving design, the beginnings of her faith and her election are found already among the Patriarchs, Moses and the prophets. She professes that all who believe in Christ-Abraham's sons according to faith (6)-are included in the same Patriarch's call, and likewise that the salvation of the Church is mysteriously foreshadowed by the chosen people's exodus from the land of bondage.

The Church, therefore, cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament through the Jewish people with whom God in His inexpressible mercy concluded the Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws sustenance from the root of that well-cultivated olive tree onto which have been grafted the wild shoots, the Gentiles.

The Church keeps ever in mind the words of the Apostle about his kinsmen: "theirs is the sonship and the glory and the covenants and the law and the worship and the promises; theirs are the fathers and from them is the Christ according to the flesh" (Rom. 9:4-5)".​

But the New Testament also states that “the Word is the true light that enlightens every man coming into the world” (John 1:9). This concept is echoed in the parable of the sower in Matthew 13: 3−9, where the divinely scattered seeds of divine truth are dispensed indiscriminately, to all and sundry. St. Paul likewise informs us of pagans being able to access the 'natural law' of God inhering in every conscience and thus attaining salvation in Christ: "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law, since they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness" (Romans 2:14).

The 1978 Mormon Church Presidency, for instance, declared among other things that:

• Great religious leaders of the world received "a portion of God's light".
• These leaders and others were given moral truths by God "to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals."

@Katzpur may be able to fill us in some more on that, as she is my go to authority on the forum for all things LDS Christianity-related. I have deep admiration for Mormon inclusivism.

So far as the Catholic Church is concerned, our doctrinal position expressed at the Second Vatican Council is broadly similar to that of the LDS and we base it upon the teaching of semina verbi (seeds of the Word) derived from the Church Fathers. In his encyclical Letter, Redemptoris missio (1990), Pope St. John Paul II, insisting on the dialogue between Christian faith and non Christian religions, states that that: “through dialogue, the Church seeks to uncover the seeds of the Word (semina verbi), a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men; these are found in individuals and in the religious traditions of mankind." Semina verbi is a very ancient expression, coined by the church father St. Justin Martyr circa 150 A.D., which resurfaced in the documents of the Second Vatican Council to designate whatever is “true and holy" and divinely inspired in other religions.

With reference to Islam in particular, Catholics consider Muslims to be part of God's plan of salvation, as being brothers in the faith of Abraham who worship the same God as we do. This was first expressed, long ago, by Pope Gregory VII in a 1076 epistle to the Muslim king of Mauritania (which is referenced as an authority in Nostra Aetate):


On believing and confessing the one God, ‘although in different ways’

St. Gregory VII, Letter III, 21 to Anazir [Al-Nasir], King of Mauretania PL, 148.451A:

God, the Creator of all, without whom we cannot do or even think anything that is good, has inspired to your heart this act of kindness. He who enlightens all people coming in to the world [Jn 1.9] has enlightened your mind for this purpose. Almighty God, who desires all people to be saved [1 Tim 2.4] and none to perish, is well pleased to approve in us most of all that besides loving God people love others, and do not do to others anything they do not want to be done unto themselves [Mt 7.12].

We and you must show in a special way to the other nations an example of this charity, for we believe and confess one God, although in different ways, and praise and worship him daily as the creator of all ages and the ruler of this world. For the apostle says: ‘He is our peace who has made us but one’ [Eph 2.14]. Many among the Roman nobility, informed by us of this grace granted to you by God, greatly admire and praise your goodness and virtue …

God knows that we love you purely for his honor and that we desire your salvation and glory, both in the present and in the future life. And we pray in our hearts and with our lips that God may lead you to the abode of happiness, to the bosom of the holy patriarch Abraham, after long years of life here on earth.

(Cited in J. Neuner and J. Dupuis, eds., The Christian Faith in the Documents of the Catholic Church. Bangalore: Theological Publications in India, 1982, 276–77)​

As Vatican II's constitution on the Church (1965) affirmed (in words that are doctrinally binding on Catholics):


Lumen gentium

In the first place we must recall the Jewish people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator.

In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128)

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.​

Both Hinduism and Islam are referred to, by name, in Nostra Aetate:


Nostra aetate

Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust....

Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing "ways," comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men...

The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.

3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.​

 

[Vouthon]

In the 1980s, during his organisation of mass interfaith gatherings in Assisi, Pope John Paul II alluded to this in greater depth:


9 September 1998 | John Paul II

"...Every quest of the human spirit for truth and goodness, and in the last analysis for God, is inspired by the Holy Spirit. The various religions arose precisely from this primordial human openness to God. At their origins we often find founders who, with the help of God's Spirit, achieved a deeper religious experience. Handed on to others, this experience took form in the doctrines, rites and precepts of the various religions.

Because of the human spirit's constitutive openness to God's action of urging it to self-transcendence, we can hold that "every authentic prayer is called forth by the Holy Spirit, who is mysteriously present in the heart of every person".

We experienced an eloquent manifestation of this truth at the World Day of Prayer for Peace on 27 October 1986 in Assisi, and on other similar occasions of great spiritual intensity. The Holy Spirit is not only present in other religions through authentic expressions of prayer. "The Spirit's presence and activity", as I wrote in the Encyclical Letter Redemptoris missio, "affect not only individuals but also society and history, peoples, cultures and religions...

This doctrine leads us to affirm that, though the routes taken may be different, “there is but a single goal to which is directed the deepest aspiration of the human spirit as expressed in its quest for God and also in its quest, through its tending towards God, for the full dimension of its humanity, or in other words, for the full meaning of human life” (Redemptor hominis, n. 11)

This possibility is achieved through sincere, inward adherence to the Truth, generous self-giving to one’s neighbour and the search for the Absolute inspired by the Spirit of God. A ray of the divine Wisdom is also shown through the fulfilment of the precepts and practices that conform to the moral law and to authentic religious sense..."​

 

[McBell]

"Whatever that really means" is the big question - why are some Christianity adherents being written off? You yourself admit that there are fake Christians.

"Admit"?
WTF are you talking about?

IF there are "real" Christians, then it stands to reason there are "Fake" Christians.
Problem is, Christians are so sure that all who disagree with their particular sect of Christianity are "Fake" thus by default, they must be "Real".


How this is "admitting" to anything at all is completely beyond me.

 

[Harel13]

IF there are "real" Christians, then it stands to reason there are "Fake" Christians.
Problem is, Christians are so sure that all who disagree with their particular sect of Christianity are "Fake" thus by default, they must be "Real".


How this is "admitting" to anything at all is completely beyond me.

I was only quoting from your post.
You didn't emphasize the "if" previously, so it seemed obvious to me that you think there are, in fact, real Christians.

 

[McBell]

I was only quoting from your post.
You didn't emphasize the "if" previously, so it seemed obvious to me that you think there are, in fact, real Christians.

hmmmm.
I acknowledge your point as being valid.

I finally found it:

the divisions of Christianity
​

I started that thread because my posts in the "mother" thread were deleted because it is a "same faith" thread...
Mother Thread:

Christian: A house divided?​