Noachides

[Tarheeler]

I suppose you're right, mate. Seems likely anything I post here will be derailed, questions I can just google after all.

You can always ask questions here.

 

[Flankerl]

I suppose you're right, mate. Seems likely anything I post here will be derailed, questions I can just google after all.

Well if you are a Noachide you have to know about the halakha regarding marriage. And if you bring it up that you are legally married to a Jewish woman it will of course be brought up that according to Jewish law this is not okay. That is nothing personal even if it may seem that way.

I'm not at all Christian and as for MJ... well, I'd be doubly not a fit there, eh?.

Well you have the problem that you belong to a rather new, unknown and rather unorganised movement. When the rules were set up on this Forum I doubt that they even knew about you guys.
I mean I know people in my community who have never heard of you and they are Jews.



@Tarheeler
Mate listen, undoubtably are the 7 Laws of Noah and the subsequent still rather fresh movement somehow interlinked with Judaism and us Jews, right?

So wouldn't it make sense to give them a sub-DIR in the Judaism DIR with a big asterisk about the usage of the main Judaism DIR and the other sub-DIRs?

Sure this would be new for RF but once upon a time RF was also new and we as humans have to adapt to new situations.
And sure there aren't many Noachides on RF, but for those that are a small sub-DIR won't hurt that much?
I mean they don't have a big DIR on their own and there really isn't a place where you could put it anyway since being a member of that movement requires Jewish input regarding what is allowed and what not.

I think this would be a good idea and we can thus help people in their life with this.


@rosends
@metis
@Eliab ben Benjamin
@Jayhawker Soule
@Tumah
@RabbiO

@allthepeoplethatIforgot


Peace out!


Also did @Levite crumble under the stress of being a father? :O

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Mate listen, undoubtably are the 7 Laws of Noah and the subsequent still rather fresh movement somehow interlinked with Judaism and us Jews, right?

So wouldn't it make sense to give them a sub-DIR in the Judaism DIR with a big asterisk about the usage of the main Judaism DIR and the other sub-DIRs?

In my opinion, no.

Whatever it is, this "movement" is not a subset of Judaism. I see no compelling reason why a Judaism sub-DIR would be any more appropriate or supportive than a sib-DIR of Abrahamic Religions DIR would be.

 

[rosends]

In my opinion, no.

Whatever it is, this "movement" is not a subset of Judaism. I see no compelling reason why a Judaism sub-DIR would be any more appropriate or supportive than a sib-DIR of Abrahamic Religions DIR would be.

While it is not a sub-set of Judaism, it is a system which only exists because of (and within), and is only really defined through Judaism.

 

[Tumah]

@Tarheeler
Mate listen, undoubtably are the 7 Laws of Noah and the subsequent still rather fresh movement somehow interlinked with Judaism and us Jews, right?

So wouldn't it make sense to give them a sub-DIR in the Judaism DIR with a big asterisk about the usage of the main Judaism DIR and the other sub-DIRs?

Sure this would be new for RF but once upon a time RF was also new and we as humans have to adapt to new situations.
And sure there aren't many Noachides on RF, but for those that are a small sub-DIR won't hurt that much?
I mean they don't have a big DIR on their own and there really isn't a place where you could put it anyway since being a member of that movement requires Jewish input regarding what is allowed and what not.

I think this would be a good idea and we can thus help people in their life with this.


@rosends
@metis
@Eliab ben Benjamin
@Jayhawker Soule
@Tumah
@RabbiO

@allthepeoplethatiforgot

I already opened a thread about that in site feedback when this thread was made.

 

[Akivah]

I already opened a thread about that in site feedback when this thread was made.

It seems that there are more Noahides around these days. And as the term is only defined by Judaism, it only makes sense that their DIR be a subset of Judaism. I don't see any negatives to it.

 

[Tumah]

It seems that there are more Noahides around these days. And as the term is only defined by Judaism, it only makes sense that their DIR be a subset of Judaism. I don't see any negatives to it.

I pretty much said the same.

 

[Flankerl]

In my opinion, no.

Whatever it is, this "movement" is not a subset of Judaism. I see no compelling reason why a Judaism sub-DIR would be any more appropriate or supportive than a sib-DIR of Abrahamic Religions DIR would be.

What rosends said.

 

[Tarheeler]

@Tarheeler
Mate listen, undoubtably are the 7 Laws of Noah and the subsequent still rather fresh movement somehow interlinked with Judaism and us Jews, right?

So wouldn't it make sense to give them a sub-DIR in the Judaism DIR with a big asterisk about the usage of the main Judaism DIR and the other sub-DIRs?

Sure this would be new for RF but once upon a time RF was also new and we as humans have to adapt to new situations.
And sure there aren't many Noachides on RF, but for those that are a small sub-DIR won't hurt that much?
I mean they don't have a big DIR on their own and there really isn't a place where you could put it anyway since being a member of that movement requires Jewish input regarding what is allowed and what not.

I think this would be a good idea and we can thus help people in their life with this.

Peace out!


Also did @Levite crumble under the stress of being a father? :O

In my opinion, no.

Whatever it is, this "movement" is not a subset of Judaism. I see no compelling reason why a Judaism sub-DIR would be any more appropriate or supportive than a sib-DIR of Abrahamic Religions DIR would be.

I'd have to agree with Jay on this one.

While I think it would be great for Noahides to have their own space, I think it would be better suited to falling under the Abrahamic DIR rather than being a subset of the Judasim DIR.

The 7 Laws of Noah are very broad, and, as we've seen on this board, Christians, Muslims, Bahais, and members of other religions have all claimed the title. And they are correct; being a Noahide does not preclude one from being an adherent of another religion. Yes, there are orthodox rabbis who encourage potential converts of become Noahides and follow Judaism, but that isn't what the entire Noahide movement is about.

 

[Tumah]

I'd have to agree with Jay on this one.

While I think it would be great for Noahides to have their own space, I think it would be better suited to falling under the Abrahamic DIR rather than being a subset of the Judasim DIR.

The 7 Laws of Noah are very broad, and, as we've seen on this board, Christians, Muslims, Bahais, and members of other religions have all claimed the title. And they are correct; being a Noahide does not preclude one from being an adherent of another religion. Yes, there are orthodox rabbis who encourage potential converts of become Noahides and follow Judaism, but that isn't what the entire Noahide movement is about.

Christians, Muslims, Bahai's and members of other religions may claim to be following the Noahide Laws or descend from Noah. Not calling themselves Noahides, as so far the earliest reference to the title is found in the Ritva (14th century) many years after most of these groups came into existence.

In recent years, the term "Noahide" has come to refer to non-Jews who strive to live in accord with the seven Noahide Laws; the terms "observant Noahide" or "Torah-centered Noahides" would be more precise but these are infrequently used. Support for the use of "Noahide" in this sense can be found with the Ritva, who uses the term Son of Noah to refer to a Gentile who keeps the seven laws, but is not a Ger Toshav.
-Wikipedia​

These religions don't call themselves Noahides, they call themselves Christians, Muslims, Baha'i and members of other religions. The Laws of Jewish Noahidism precludes the possibility of being a member of another faith. See here, Law 9. There are an additional 23 sub-Laws some of which directly contradict other religions' laws or are simply not found in them.

So I think there is plenty of room to say that Noahidism is a strictly Jewish concept

 

[Tarheeler]

Christians, Muslims, Bahai's and members of other religions may claim to be following the Noahide Laws or descend from Noah. Not calling themselves Noahides, as so far the earliest reference to the title is found in the Ritva (14th century) many years after most of these groups came into existence.

In recent years, the term "Noahide" has come to refer to non-Jews who strive to live in accord with the seven Noahide Laws; the terms "observant Noahide" or "Torah-centered Noahides" would be more precise but these are infrequently used. Support for the use of "Noahide" in this sense can be found with the Ritva, who uses the term Son of Noah to refer to a Gentile who keeps the seven laws, but is not a Ger Toshav.
-Wikipedia​

These religions don't call themselves Noahides, they call themselves Christians, Muslims, Baha'i and members of other religions. The Laws of Jewish Noahidism precludes the possibility of being a member of another faith. See here, Law 9. There are an additional 23 sub-Laws some of which directly contradict other religions' laws or are simply not found in them.

So I think there is plenty of room to say that Noahidism is a strictly Jewish concept

How we define a Noahide has no bearing on how the rest of the world defines it, Tumah.

 

[Tumah]

How we define a Noahide has no bearing on how the rest of the world defines it, Tumah.

Is that true? I don't see any reference to that in the Wiki on Noahidism.

That's would be kind of crazy, don't you think? Here we have a concept straight out of the Talmud, that is not brought in any other religion's writings in this way, and Judaism doesn't have the right to set its parameters? If the world decides that Judaism is the religion of those who follow Ghandi, do we have to change the name of our religion as well?

 

[Tarheeler]

Is that true? I don't see any reference to that in the Wiki on Noahidism.

Yeah, I wouldn't consider Wikipedia to be the sum of all information on a subject, particularly when the article is written from a specific point-of-view.

That's would be kind of crazy, don't you think? Here we have a concept straight out of the Talmud, that is not brought in any other religion's writings in this way, and Judaism doesn't have the right to set its parameters? If the world decides that Judaism is the religion of those who follow Ghandi, do we have to change the name of our religion as well?

Oh, you mean like how other religions have taken the Jewish concept of messiah and decided it means something completely different? Or the World to Come? Or hijacked our Scripture and decided we didn't know what it meant?

Yeah, it would be crazy if stuff like that ever happened.

The term "Noahide", much like the term messiah, no longer exists solely within Judaism. And, because of that, use of that term when it comes to this site would have to be used in the much broader and non-Judaism-specific sense in use today.

 

[Flankerl]

How we define a Noahide has no bearing on how the rest of the world defines it, Tumah.

Well most people believe the only difference between Christianity and Judaism is the acceptance of Jesus.

Guess it's time to close this DIR and move to the Christianity DIR.


It's usually a very bad idea to go by what the rest of the world thinks.

 

[Shem Ben Noah]

...That's would be kind of crazy, don't you think? Here we have a concept straight out of the Talmud, that is not brought in any other religion's writings in this way, and Judaism doesn't have the right to set its parameters? If the world decides that Judaism is the religion of those who follow Ghandi, do we have to change the name of our religion as well?

Been following the topic, would love to discuss but unsure if I can here.

So, a question, per the rules...

In the spirit of above post, don't you think it kind of crazy that Noachides don't have the rights to their own religion, that another faith claims this?

Yes, sure, Judaism has been the keeper of the flame, waiting to pass it on... but ownership should be for those who need it, to live it, surely?

Is it not currently seen as a puppet religion, the waystation of those in the Jewish conversion process?

Is this any way for credibility?

 

[Tumah]

Been following the topic, would love to discuss but unsure if I can here.

So, a question, per the rules...

In the spirit of above post, don't you think it kind of crazy that Noachides don't have the rights to their own religion, that another faith claims this?

Yes, sure, Judaism has been the keeper of the flame, waiting to pass it on... but ownership should be for those who need it, to live it, surely?

Is it not currently seen as a puppet religion, the waystation of those in the Jewish conversion process?

Is this any way for credibility?

I'm not really sure where you're coming from. The Torah given by G-d, dictates what G-d wants from Priests, Levites, Israelites, men, women, children, Jews and non-Jews. Noahidism is Judaism. Its not a separate religion that Judaism held onto for non-Jews. Its Judaism for non-Jews and some of the Laws directly influence the relationship between the two, just like it would between two Jews. If you believe that G-d gave the Torah to the Jews, then you can come and find out what requirements G-d placed on non-Jews. Creating another religion, that doesn't reflect what G-d wants from non-Jews, has no value and may inherently suggest disbelief in the Torah and by extension, the Noahide Laws.

It may be that many non-Jews that become Noahides, later convert. I don't know. But that's a personal decision that has no bearing on what the purpose of the Noahide Laws have.

I don't know what credibility you're looking for.

 

[Tarheeler]

This is quickly moving into the area of debate, and should be continued in the Same Faiths area.
I've created a thread for it: http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...-part-of-judaism-or-a-separate-entity.189518/

 

[Brickjectivity]

I am not sure if you will consider these to be questions about Judaism, but they seem related to Naohid-ism. Since there's a Noahide thread it seems like a good place to put these questions at the moment:

I have a series of questions about whether Abram (before Abraham) is a Noahide among other things. I think I am referring to 'Genesis' or 'Bereshiit' chapter 13 for this but not sure. Consider Abram near the tree of Memre, and his allies. Abram's nephew has not been captured, and they are all working and living quietly. Is Abram a Noahide or not? Are his allies Noahides? Will he be allies with them if they are not? When he converts and his name is changed does that mean they have to convert, too? Do they go separate ways if he converts and they do not?

I have another question or two maybe not related but maybe related. Moving to another place and time and a different set of people, say in Numbers 13:23 and related verses: Is the Valley of Eshkol believed to be in the same place where Abram's Memre was long ago? Did Abram of the past and his allies have vineyards there before? Did Abram plant the grapes? Did Abram ever taste the grapes before? Is that where he got his wine from? Where did the grapes come from, and what happened to Abram's allies? Did they remain his allies and convert? Did they remain his allies but not convert? Did they lose track of each other and become estranged?

 

[Tumah]

I am not sure if you will consider these to be questions about Judaism, but they seem related to Naohid-ism. Since there's a Noahide thread it seems like a good place to put these questions at the moment:

I have a series of questions about whether Abram (before Abraham) is a Noahide among other things. I think I am referring to 'Genesis' or 'Bereshiit' chapter 13 for this but not sure. Consider Abram near the tree of Memre, and his allies. Abram's nephew has not been captured, and they are all working and living quietly. Is Abram a Noahide or not? Are his allies Noahides? Will he be allies with them if they are not? When he converts and his name is changed does that mean they have to convert, too? Do they go separate ways if he converts and they do not?

The question of whether Abra[ha]m and every subsequent descendant of his until Mt. Sinai ever leave their status of "Noahide" is the source of a long debate. There's a semi-famous Jewish book, whose author dedicates an 80 page three part essay towards tracing the argument in Jewish sources back to Abraham and Sarah, as well as the implications both ways in Jewish Law.
According to at least one Midrash, Aner, Eshkol and Mamre were righteous (what you might call saints). I think today, we would call them, "Noahides", as they wouldn't be considered righteous had they not kept those Laws.
I don't think conversion here has the same meaning as it does after Mt. Sinai. To convert, just means to decide to follow the Noahide Laws as there are no other Laws and nothing to convert to. So in that respect, the three had already converted.

I have another question or two maybe not related but maybe related. Moving to another place and time and a different set of people, say in Numbers 13:23 and related verses: Is the Valley of Eshkol believed to be in the same place where Abram's Memre was long ago? Did Abram of the past and his allies have vineyards there before? Did Abram plant the grapes? Did Abram ever taste the grapes before? Is that where he got his wine from? Where did the grapes come from,

From the Midrash it looks like the valley of Eshkol was in the district belonging to (and originally called) Eshkol. It looks like Aner, Eshkol and Mamre may have each had their own neighborhood: Mamre had his plains and Eshkol, his valley . I can't find any source about who planted the grapes or who ate from them.

and what happened to Abram's allies? Did they remain his allies and convert? Did they remain his allies but not convert? Did they lose track of each other and become estranged?

I couldn't find any sources that speak about these things, although I had recently seen that none of the converts that Abraham made lasted long-term. Although the Midrash does say that their daughters were righteous as well.

 

[rosends]

A reference to the people converted by Abraham
https://books.google.com/books?id=N...=onepage&q=yitzchak converted avraham&f=false

I recall, somewhere, reading about the other forefathers doing something related to the people Avraham converted but I can't find it now.